Men in Dresses

[Versiroth]

No, one 'side' is who someone is. The other 'side' is someone's opinion. This is why the opinion that 'men in dresses' (a transphobic description of a transwoman, by the way) is wrong carries less weight than the desire of someone who is a transwoman to be allowed her full dignity at all times. Including in a video game.

Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

True. I think the issue here is the community. Maybe we shouldn't compare WoW and FFXIV because they're not the same and therefore the impact is not the same. Like we shouldn't compare them with LoL community (i'm beginning to find a lot of toxic players, tho)

On the subject of community, pretty sure WoW has a worse community than FF does lol. LoL might have an even worse one than WoW, who knows, but it's pretty much known WoW has one of the most terrible community of players ever. (But at this point I'm derailing so Ima leave it at that)

[Synapse]

As a Vegetarian playing this game, im forced to eat meat products to increase my offensive attributes(ex Charbroiled Steak), i think there some inequality here, why are they forcing such things. I would like to eat vegetable dishes that give the same stats.

Why is it the norm that meat is always used for "offensive Properties", why cant vegetables give you offensive stats? i don't like this "norm".

Everyday im forced by the community around me to eat meat or get kick from party.

[Gramul]

There are 2 reasons for why I believe they wouldn't do this:
1. Japan is still really awkward about nontraditional gender representation. As are a lot of people.
2. They would have to reshape all the gender restricted gear to fit the counterparts and make various event gear tradable/choosable. They may believe that wouldn't be worth the effort.

And then there's my personal opinion that most dresses do not flatter a generic masculine form. But that's really up to the wearer.

[mbncd]

Personally, I'm all for dressing my male miqo'te in a frilly dress (it would suit him, honestly, and he's not a transwoman), but I do doubt it will happen.

In 1.0 there were a couple of early weaver recipes, one involving straw to make a straw hat that everyone could wear, and one involving a flower to be added to the hat (there was also a later one involving a dark ribbon but I don't remember if that was ever locked). The moment you added that flower, the hat previously worn by males and females equally was instantly locked to females only.

I have vague memories of seeing male roes wearing the flower hats since 2.0 release but I'm not sure if that was altered screen shots or if they actually loosened up that restriction, however the fact that that restriction was ever in place really speaks volumes about the likelihood of males wearing traditional dresses.

For now, my boy cat will have to be satisfied with vanya robes and other non-dress dresses.

[Xandim]

text

The sad thing is that laws in almost every country doesn't keep up with current times. I mean, here where I live cyber crimes are still shady and doesn't have a proper law for it. A few years ago a popular TV star got her nude pictures taken and published on several websites, and just then they created a law against publishing those kind of pics.... Idk the specifics bout the law tho, so cant discuss about it xD.....

But what im trying to say is that law takes some time to catch up with the present. In some countries some laws are even from the last century.

PS: This is for the law part thing =P
PS2: sorry but english isnt my native language, hope u get what im saying >.<

[Merle]

On the subject of community, pretty sure WoW has a worse community than FF does lol. LoL might have an even worse one than WoW, who knows, but it's pretty much known WoW has one of the most terrible community of players ever. (But at this point I'm derailing so Ima leave it at that)

Exactly, thats my point. WoW has a terrible community: that means more trolls, so maybe more people are willing to accept men in dresses because the "troll factor". Not sure if FFXIV is more serious-minded and thats why we're having this "i'm not sure if this is correct" debate

[Dashuto]

The sad thing is that laws in almost every country doesn't keep up with current times. I mean, here where I live cyber crimes are still shady and doesn't have a proper law for it. A few years ago a popular TV star got her nude pictures taken and published on several websites, and just then they created a law against publishing those kind of pics.... Idk the specifics bout the law tho, so cant discuss about it xD.....

But what im trying to say is that law takes some time to catch up with the present. In some countries some laws are even from the last century.

You are 100% correct, and it is a very good point. I will add that social norms take even longer than the laws. We also should remind ourselves there are some cultures that will /never/ agree with the western ideals of equality. I dare not name them directly, but I am sure you can make accurate assumptions.

[Mhaeric]

Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

Because that was one example, not an all encompassing statement. Calling someone who is a transwoman a man in a dress is indeed incredibly demeaning to them. Calling a drag queen a man in a dress is stating a fact. For a male-identified gender queer individual who presents more feminie it is less obvious, but with the term 'man in a dress' I would err on the side of caution and not use that phrase. If in doubt, just ask. As long as you are sincere in your desire to know their preferred way to be referred to, they will be more than happy to let you know.

[Mychael]

I never said people should go up and rub their man-in-a-dressness all over someone's face. But how are we supposed to expect people to become comfortable with it if they're never exposed to it because it "makes them uncomfortable"? There are ways to still be a man in a dress and be around people who are uncomfortable with this fact, without being overbearing about it. This argument is like saying "I shouldn't be openly gay in public because it makes people uncomfortable to see it". How is that any more fair to those people than to the people uncomfortable with seeing it?

There isn't a "fair" answer in today's world. People just aren't that accepting, and probably won't be for another generation. Racism didn't just disappear. It still hasn't disappeared.Our goal shouldn't be to "conquer" the mindset, but to integrate. The key to that is playing our similarities, not our extremes. Men in dresses, while popular among my friends, is kind of extreme.

As I already said, unless someone wants to volunteer themselves to disagree, I don't know any MTF that wouldn't play a female character (or any FTM that wouldn't roll a male, for that matter). As easy as it is to say this is an argument for trans-awareness, I don't buy it. [Also, see below.]

Back on-topic: I doubt it'll make it in-game. SE's underlying goal is to make money. Though I actually think that the vast majority of XIV fans would be okay with dresses on men (How many of us aren't fairly liberal anyway? This isn't a FPS...), there's a vocal minority that would quit if it was officially "supported," along with bad press in more conservative markets. That loss would be larger than the minority that might quit if it's not. Anyone whose subscription is contingent on cross-dressing is probably outside of the typical target market of an MMO, sadly.

I said this more subtly earlier, but if people hadn't ask for it, it wouldn't have been a big deal. It would have been a minor "WTF" to some, and then been over. But, if SE answers this thread now that it's turned into this big gay-trans-rights cluster, they're going to lose a few customers either way. So they'll probably pretend this thread didn't happen.

Actually, there are plenty of guys who see themselves as guys and identify more with their male persona but at the same time prefer to wear female clothes and make up.

While I'm sure that GQ individuals exist that fit this description, I can't say that I've ever met a male-dominant personality who was so intent on wearing effeminate clothing that they wouldn't either play a female, or just ignore it. I don't know anyone that wouldn't play a game that didn't support it. At the very least, we have robes that support a more "high-fashion" model if you're really going down that road.

Please, let me just say that I wouldn't wear anything that my XIV character wears. Well, okay. Maybe a fewwww things. But to expect your in-game wardrobe to so closely match a modern, real-life one is a bit far-fetched.