Men in Dresses

[Mhaeric]

That is still opinion and personal belief. You can paint it however you want, its still two sides clashing. One person will be uncomfortable with the others presence, the other is uncomfortable because they have to compromise what/who they are.

There is a significant difference between compromising one's opinion about someone's identity and compromising one's identity itself. Those are not equal.

I don't know how to process a discriminatory sign, however legal it may be in it's location, being used to support tolerating discrimination. You're basically saying discrimination exists, therefore it should simply be tolerated because it's someone's opinion. There is such a disconnect of logic there I don't know how to even approach a discussion. I'll just posit that just because a certain discrimination is culturally accepted, doesn't mean that it should be tolerated.

[Versiroth]

snip

What you're not seeing is that by not tolerating and respecting someone's culture or beliefs that clash with your own, you're really no better than them. You both have a different belief structure. To them, you trying to insert homosexuality beliefs into their life is the same as them trying to take it away from you. You don't like it and neither do they. Who's right and who's wrong here? Who's beliefs win? Both groups need to simply acknowledge and respect the others and respectively agree to disagree.

Again, I'm not religious and I don't have an issue with LGBT people, but tolerance in one's beliefs goes both ways. When people try to tell me I'm wrong for not believing in god, I simply say that I respect their right to believe what they want and that they should extend me that same courtesy. You can't expect people to embrace your beliefs and at the same time call them names and insult them for their own.

[Mhaeric]

What you're not seeing is that by not tolerating and respecting someone's culture or beliefs that clash with your own, you're really no better than them. You both have a different belief structure. To them, you trying to insert homosexuality beliefs into their life is the same as them trying to take it away from you. You don't like it and neither do they. Who's right and who's wrong here? Who's beliefs win? Both groups need to simply acknowledge and respect the others and respectively agree to disagree.

Again, I'm not religious and I don't have an issue with LGBT people, but tolerance in one's beliefs goes both ways. When people try to tell me I'm wrong for not believing in god, I simply say that I respect their right to believe what they want and that they should extend me that same courtesy. You can't expect people to embrace your beliefs and at the same time call them names and insult them for their own.

What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion. People who don't like that people are gay or trans don't have to embrace it at all, but they cannot restrict it. They can certainly believe what they want to believe, but the moment that turns into action that prevents someone who is gay or trans from simply living openly as gay or trans without repercussion there is a problem.

[Mychael]

What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion. People who don't like that people are gay or trans don't have to embrace it at all, but they cannot restrict it. They can certainly believe what they want to believe, but the moment that turns into action that prevents someone who is gay or trans from simply living openly as gay or trans without repercussion there is a problem.

It is no one's fault for believing what they believe, even if that impairs others. While it's true that me not being able to make out in public is an injustice to me, it's similarly unjust for me to do so when there are highly conservative, religous families nearby. To them, I am making a choice to sin, and am evil. To me, they are making a choice to be bigoted and closed-minded.

The reality of the situation is, my actions are based on my knowledge (that being gay is not a choice), and theirs are based on their knowledge (that being gay IS a choice). Science may be on my side, but history is on theirs, for the moment. Someone has to question their deeply-embedded beliefs. It may be hard to understand, but some peoples' religions and beliefs are so deeply ingrained that they are probably equivalent to sexual orientation in rigidity.

There is no win-win situation here. Like I said earlier, SE will probably avoid taking sides on this issue.

In regards to your sign image, it's a shop in Japan, they don't HAVE to serve tourists and likely don't want to due to language barriers. Amazing what a problem language can be. As for the quoted, you're right. It's not just a right, it's an inalienable right. We are ALL free to pursue our own identities in our own ways to our own ends and noone can take that away from us. People have gone to jail, or worse, for trying to infringe on this inalienable right. Now, there IS a line in how far this can be defended. If, in the pursuit of your identity, you try to PHYSICALLY involve others who do not want a part of it then you are in the wrong as you are then infringing on THEIR inalienable right. This is the ONLY time you can do anything about it. You speak of tolerance yet say, "Personal identity is not a right." Where's this tolerance you speak of, then?

Hate to break it to you, but inalienable rights are social constructs, just like intolerance and discrimination. What you mean is people WHERE YOU ARE FROM have gone to jail, or worse, for trying. What you fail to realize is the ethnocentrism of your statement, which pretty much ruined any valid argument about an inalienable right to self-identity. Only in a few countries is it illegal to hate gay people; the American judicial system does not decide right and wrong for the whole world.

[Versiroth]

What you are not understanding is that being gay or trans is not a belief nor an opinion.

You're right. It's who you are and how you live. Which again, is no different than a culture that disagrees with sensationalizing homosexuality. That's who they are and how they live. Calling them close minded, bigots, homophobes, etc is no different than them calling you derogatory names. Or are you saying that they should change who they are? All I'm saying is, right and wrong is very much a perspective thing when it comes to ways of life.