Men in Dresses

[Shioban]

Male characters in WoW can wear the Lovely Dress, which is decidedly "feminine" in design.

I honestly don't recall being able to wear that for all the years I played, always thought it was a suit.
Colour me wrong on that I guess.



If you find any other examples, do let me know!
I was actually googling around to see if I could find any Asian MMO's that did this, no luck so far. (Which would be key to the argument here)



I still think that the evidence so far shows that they're very much on the brand of separating items through gender.
(Swimsuits, Guardian Corps/Bohemians, Yukata's) all of which were gender specific and locked items.

Which is why I very much diffuted when you said "I think they'll add it, you're totally wrong!"

I have a male miqo'te who requires a dress.

Make it happen, don't listen to the homophobic and transphobic bigots who can't stand things not fitting into their accepted social norms. I require a pretty dress for my miqo'te. (So that I can then dye it black and be a dark force of chaos and destruction)

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.
It's extremely rude to say "Well you're just homo/trans-phobic". If it makes other people feel un-easy or un-comfortable then YOU as another human being someone who also expects mutual respect and equality should consider this factor. It's not all about YOU.

Stop trying to exacerbate this point.

Sadly social norms are what most developers will go for, it's not a popular opinion among the trans-gendered crowd I'm very sure, but I can see their stance on this being along the same as their stance on Gay Marriage in the game.

Naoki Yoshida himself said this; "This is a controversial subject, things like this have to be approached carefully as a company, the decision will come from the development team after we've discussed it enough."

[SpookyGhost]

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.

It does, however, say that they're not only incredibly close minded but also very uncomfortable with their sexuality. They also think the world revolves around them and that people should conform to whatever their idea of a "man" and a "woman" is. A burly man with a beard in a dress would be perfectly fine to anyone who isn't insecure - that's their decision, that's how they feel comfortable. A lot of SE's decisions for FF14/FF11 were based on their core audience, the Japanese market - that's why, if marriage is implemented, we probably won't see gay marriage. That doesn't mean it's okay for them to do that or that Japanese customs are supposed to be completely okay with the Western world because "they're from a different place!!". While we won't see dresses for men (most likely) or gay marriage (most likely), that doesn't mean it's fine to critique people for dressing differently. Is that dress really affecting your life in any way? Is it doing ANYTHING more than making you uncomfortable because you're insecure about your sexuality? No, it's really not. Girls wear binders and dress in suits designed for men - is THAT not okay? If not, why not? How is it affecting you? What is it doing to YOU that makes you so uncomfortable?

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Stop trying to make it out as a personal attack. Seriously...
Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.
It's extremely rude to say "Well you're just homo/trans-phobic". If it makes other people feel un-easy or un-comfortable then YOU as another human being someone who also expects mutual respect and equality should consider this factor. It's not all about YOU.

Stop trying to exacerbate this point.

Sadly social norms are what most developers will go for, it's not a popular opinion among the trans-gendered crowd I'm very sure, but I can see their stance on this being along the same as their stance on Gay Marriage in the game.

Naoki Yoshida himself said this; "This is a controversial subject, things like this have to be approached carefully as a company, the decision will come from the development team after we've discussed it enough."

Sorry, but the only reason I see for anyone to be uncomfortable with men being in dresses is they have internalized transphobic/homophobic societal norms. There is literally NOTHING wrong with men wearing dresses or "women's clothes", just as there is NOTHING wrong with women wearing "men's clothes". Why do people not make a big deal about one but get up in arms about the other? Internalized bigotry. Whether you realize it or not, that's what it is. There is NO reason people should be uncomfortable with it unless they were raised in an oppressive and backwards cultural or societal environment which said "no, these things aren't natural and normal".

It's rude to say someone's a bigot? It's also rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way, though honestly I don't feel bad about being "rude" to people with internalized bigotry. They certainly don't feel bad being rude to people just trying to express themselves how they see fit. If anything, THEY'RE the ones making it "all about them", as you tried to say.

[Mychael]

It's rude to say someone's a bigot? It's also rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way, though honestly I don't feel bad about being "rude" to people with internalized bigotry. They certainly don't feel bad being rude to people just trying to express themselves how they see fit. If anything, THEY'RE the ones making it "all about them", as you tried to say.

If I were in drag, I wouldn't walk into the face of someone who's clearly uncomfortable with my dress and criticize their opinions. While it's true that they may be closed-minded or even a little insecure, that's more a product of their upbringing and cultural norms--hardly things in their sphere of influence. It's no more rude to say "I'm uncomfortable with XXX" than it is to be comfortable with it.

You're absolutely right that they have internalized prejudices and trans-/homophobic values. Again, unless you want to blame them for every life event that's shaped their personality--that's your right, I guess...

My point is, you're not helping the argument by preaching condescendingly to all of the anti-dress folks as if they were insensitive and/or clueless. They're not stating their opinions to offend you.

[Odett]

You can only use upbringing and culture to defend close-mindedness up to a certain point, but if you have the resources to educate yourself and still think that your intolerability trumps the needs of others, then you are wrong.

[Merle]

rude to say "I feel uncomfortable with this and thus don't want to see it". You're being rude to a group of people either way,

So... are you telling me that everyone who disagrees with you is "rude"?. Since your opinion is making me feel uncomfortable, does that means you're "rude"? I'm not homophobic/bigoted/whatever and STILL i don't feel comfortable with males wearing dresses because "it doesn't seem natural". Even if you disagree with Shioban, he said really good points.

By the way, finally someone talked about "Gay marriage". If Naoki Yoshida thinks thats controversial (and i guess gay marriage is more accepted/natural nowadays), i'm pretty sure this topic will be approached the same way

(I know i may look hypocrit since i'm a guy and i'm playing as a female character)

[Shioban]

It does, however, say that they're not only incredibly close minded but also very uncomfortable with their sexuality.

Sorry, but the only reason I see for anyone to be uncomfortable with men being in dresses is they have internalized transphobic/homophobic societal norms.

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

STOP READING THIS AS AN ATTACK, Jesus wept, it's like you're not reading it.

It's quite ironic you're calling others small-minded, yet you can't see logical facts placed before you.



Fact: Societies have norms. These norms change over time, our modern society has changed drastically over the past 50 years even more so over the past 100 years.
Men wearing womens clothes wasn't one of them.


Some people are homo/transphobic yes. Not everyone who disagrees with adding this fits under this bill.

Homophobic? Transphobic? No. Clearly I have to state the plain here to prove my point. If I were homophobic, I'd be fearing myself.
I personally would find it un-easy, all the people I've asked so far also agreed, not because "Dem gays is bad!" but because it's just not a normal thing to see, therefore it's confusing and unsettling.

In my entire life and the lives of many others, it's just not a normal occurance. Radical changes or differences will always make people feel uneasy, especially out of context. This doesn't make them out to be homo/transphobic. Stop trying to push this point, it makes no sense.

If a man walks a octopus down a street on a leash people are going to feel un-easy, its not a normal things to see.


Gay Rights
Womens Rights
Electricity
Jeans
Women Wearing Trousers

A TON of different things that took a very very long time to become socially acceptable. It's just a basic fact that men wearing dresses isn't on this list as of yet.

I wasn't trying to "oppress" your desires, I simply pointed out why they wouldn't do it, but as with any of these subjects it HAS to be about oppression and not logic.

There is literally nothing more I could say to make this more clear or to the point.

This is not a personal attack, this is not an opinion, this is fact.

Am I saying, men can't wear dresses? No. (You didn't read any of my posts if you didn't pick up on this already)
Am I saying, it won't be added because it's something people aren't used to yet? Yes.
Am I saying, people aren't bigoted or homophobic? No, everyone is different.
Am I saying, you're a fool if you think everyone against this "Hates the LGBTQ's!" Yes, you are a fool if you're so small minded.

By the way, finally someone talked about "Gay marriage". If Naoki Yoshida thinks thats controversial (and i guess gay marriage is more accepted/natural nowadays), i'm pretty sure this topic will be approached the same way

This is Square Enix's EXACT approach to these situations. If its controversial (which it is, there's no denying this, or the topic wouldn't be so heated) they will apporach is very carefully, and consider the damage it could do the company as a whole if it were approach incorrectly.

As a game about to be launched in China, homosexual orientated considerations will be hitting a big barrier as Square Enix will need to consider how the Chineese will react to it. (Which is going to be a HUGE market)

As reasonable adults, this is a video game not everything we know that not everything can be added to appease the entire population, I know this all too well.
As developers they had to consider what's best for their game as well as their customers.

[Mhaeric]

Yet again. No-one said it was wrong, stop saying this.

You should re-read the first few posts.

Well for me this has always been plain wrong,

As i said previously in the thread, to me, men wearing female clothing is plain wrong and makes me feel uncomfortable every time i see a guy doing in the street or TV.

----

Some people don't feel comfortable with seeing men in something thats clearly a womens dresses, this DOES NOT mean they're homophobic or transphobic.

Anyone can be uncomfortable with something as much as they like. They have every right to chalk it up as weird/disgusting/unnatural and then move on. These thoughts, however, are indeed homophobic and/or transphobic by nature despite them having every right to think them. This applies in the same way as someone who thinks that different races are inferior in some way is racist even if they never act on or express that racism externally. Homophobia and transphobia aren't given more lee-way in their definition than other forms of discrimination.

Of course, telling someone that they can't do something that is part of their identity because it makes someone uncomfortable is where it becomes homophobic or transphobic behaviour. 'It makes me or the majority uncomfortable' and 'I or the majority don't like it' are not good enough reasons to deny someone else the ability to be themselves in any situation they choose. This is the very reason that rights are not - or at least should not be - voted on.

[Dashuto]

Of course, telling someone that they can't do something that is part of their identity because it makes someone uncomfortable is where it becomes homophobic or transphobic behaviour. 'It makes me or the majority uncomfortable' and 'I or the majority don't like it' are not good enough reasons to deny someone else the ability to be themselves in any situation they choose. This is the very reason that rights are not - or at least should not be - voted on.

As a neutral party I would like to inform you, personal identity is not a right. And the way you go tossing it around is extremely volatile and one sided, including to the cause you are trying to support.
You have essentially at this point descended to saying you are correct because "you are". Because "it is the way of things". While at the same time, the other camp of this thread has been doing the same by claiming "men don't wear dresses" and so forth "its just the way of things".

What needs to be realized by the people constantly labeling each other and nagging about in this thread for an online VIDEO GAME. Is that you can't label each other sides as "wrong". They simply aren't right or wrong. They're all opinions. As difficult as it can be to believe, someone not accepting someone elses beliefs doesn't make them a _____phobe. It is an opinion or a preference. The moment you begin to believe you are on the side of justice/right instead of just containing another opinion, is the moment you begin hurting everything you want to represent.


Those who want dresses aren't wrong.
Those who don't like it aren't wrong.
Disliking each other for it is not wrong.
Harassing one another for it is.


So where does the real subject end up? Square Enix. It is the company with the "issue" at hand and simply put we all know what will be the end of it. The gay marriage debate was something they were too cautious to address and you can be fairly certain that trans anything will fall into the same category.


And for bloody sake people, someone is not a homophobe just because they do not agree with homosexuality. That is not what a homophobe is, stop labeling every random naysayer or uncomfortable person that. Talk about burning bridges. I see some in here attempting to wield it like a knife or insult: all its doing is revealing your own desperation/bias.

With that said I support equal marriage and anything people feel brings equality.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

As a neutral party I would like to inform you, personal identity is not a right.

I stopped reading right here because this has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard anywhere.