So which is it Yoshi?

[Sephirah]

As far as running WP or AK for myth level gear, the balance that they are intending is that they get the same stuff as hard core players. Just that the hard core players get it much faster. You asked what his intention was. It seems pretty clear to me.

That's the point of this thread. In one post, he says that he wants the best items to remain exclusive to people in coils. Then in another, says they are designing it so everyone can get the best items. These were 2 different posts, both made today, so I'd appreciate if one of the community reps could relay this thread, and hopefully get some more insight as to the future of this game.

[Welsper59]

And wanting the best gear ingame, without actually putting in any real effort (Because time spent was irrelevant right?) and not even needing it one bit because you don't do the instance where it might actually matter is not a sad state? Come on please.

Is it really such a strange concept that the biggest challenge should net the biggest rewards?

It's actually not that unusual for content to be there for the sake of it being there, but that's not really the case with Coil. The game does reward you gear that is BiS for most classes in Coil, maybe not for all slots obviously, but the gear is there. Some people would just take Allagan gear over tome gear just for the sake of it being that way. Do you really think everyone that raids, even big time groups like BG, do it simply for the gear? They do it because they want to experience the content (being world first certainly had some hand in that as well). The gear is definitely enticing though, but it's typically not what motivated you to do it... you're not really "experiencing" the game if that's your outlook.

And no, it's not a strange concept to expect the biggest challenge to yield the best rewards. But if that's currently not the case, and the gear is merely a minor upgrade (if not on-par), then do it because you want to. Are you really implying that everyone (or just majority) who does a raid, ONLY does it for the gear? Like that is the absolute #1 reason to do ANYTHING endgame... it's not about experiencing what there is to be experienced...

If so, then yeah, you're probably going to throw a fit. You'd probably do that for any game though, honestly. If you're playing an MMORPG, gear cannot be the only driving force to do something. That is, assuming you aim to enjoy yourself, as you'll always be VERY disappointed. So yes, sad state to be in for folks like that.

[zdub303]

What about when BiS for a given class is an Allagan piece. Doesn't that mean the casual player running WP NEVER gets that *best* piece of gear? Does that make you feel better about the whole thing?

This isn't about me lording over my piece of allagan gear that has 2-3 points of secondary stats more optimized than a piece of myth gear. This is about MMO design philosophy and how, functionally, aside from very minor stat optimizations, the best gear in the game IS obtainable by all players.

If myth gear was a slightly lower ilvl, say 85 for example, then the idea of having myth gear to fill in the gaps until you can get the obvious upgrade would make a little more sense. There would also be continued reasons to run endgame content for people who have finished it.

See, most endgame players aren't so worried about it, they will take the first i90 piece they can get their hands on and then, if conveniently, a better piece drops they'll swap it out. However, what it really comes down to is that full myth or full allagan are very close in their stats with primary stats being equal and only some secondary stats moved around a little. That is not enough incentive to keep your player base engaged once they have any combination of full i90 mix. However, this isn't a thread about what we think of the design philosophy, its whether or not the game really reflects it. Honestly, the difference is really minor and functionally, the strongest gear in the game (aside from some relatively minor secondary stat allocations) is available to everyone. In about 2 more months, we'll start to see what impact this has on the game. Where we'll really see the 'this game has no content' as many players will be full i90 and still 2-3 months away from 2.2 and turn 6.

Looking back at it, myth gear should never have been i90 at all, that was the big mistake. The fact that any piece of myth gear is more powerful than allagan directly competes with his own stated design philosophy.

If so, then yeah, you're probably going to throw a fit. You'd probably do that for any game though, honestly. If you're playing an MMORPG, gear cannot be the only driving force to do something. That is, assuming you aim to enjoy yourself, as you'll always be VERY disappointed. So yes, sad state to be in for folks like that.

Not to agree or disagree with your here, more to comment on the line of reasoning. Challenging content for the sake of itself is cool and all but that only works once. After that point, there needs to be a reason/incentive to continue to run that challenging content. That is where gear comes in. It is really bad MMO design philosophy to create content that is meant/desired to be completed once.

[Toranja]

A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and everything in between.

MY FACE! YOU HAVE MY FACE!

But you have a scar!? You ruined my face!

[Zezlar]

I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

You're argument falls flat. I love challenging content, and i'll put all my effort into beating it. The problem arises once it's beaten. I'm not going to do it a second time for the sake of doing it again.

[Freakiie]

Wow. The amount of horribly misguided assumptions in that post is amazing.

Unfortunately the only correct assumption in there is that I play MMOs. Not even gonna bother actually going into detail since all you're doing is just throwing around random assumptions about me.

[Welsper59]

You're argument falls flat. I love challenging content, and i'll put all my effort into beating it. The problem arises once it's beaten. I'm not going to do it a second time for the sake of doing it again.

Yes, that's exactly right. My argument on that was strictly towards the raid encounter itself. Think about it like this, do you still consider it fun to farm bosses repeatedly? I'm willing to bet "no", and the only fun to be had is the moment you obtain new gear. The thing that delivers the fun is not the content that you beat, it's the reward you haven't obtained. So if players really don't see a point to doing it repeatedly, then so be it. Coil however does offer rewards for those who choose to do it... and obviously, you have to do it if you want BiS gear (for some slots). SE is clearly fine with this for now, so why aren't you?

Why argue that you have gear reasons to do it repeatedly (obviously until you obtain what you need), when that's exactly what you want? You clear content before you obtain their rewards, so why bother ever getting gear that is the best of the best, when something lesser is clearly enough? If you can answer that question, then you know why you would repeat Coil, even now.

Wow. The amount of horribly misguided assumptions in that post is amazing.

Unfortunately the only correct assumption in there is that I play MMOs. Not even gonna bother actually going into detail since all you're doing is just throwing around random assumptions about me.

They're actually questions with a preemptive response (an assumed response, obviously). It's kind of important to know how to distinguish these things in an argument.

Another edit: /sigh Too many people read my comments as though I said (or perhaps they're believing) that Coil does not offer gear that is BiS. Or that I'm saying there should be content that is a 1-shot experience. I'm isolating factors of why you would/should do something in an MMORPG, in order to get the full experience. I continuously say that you need to run Coil repeatedly to get BiS gear (obviously not all slots), which is apparently what people want (mind blowing when from people complaining of the monotony the game has). I also stress that there's reason besides gear that people would run something, even if just once. Now combine those things, and you'll see why the current system still works just fine.

[Sephirah]

@_@

It's really hard to follow anything you're saying, you're mixing up your arguments and everyone is getting lost along the way, including you. We know that some of the items in coils are BiS, and we know that the challenge is reason enough to do it.

But what WE are saying, is that beating something for the challenge or experience only works ONCE. After that, there needs to be a reason to run something. If you can get gear that is just as good/sometimes better that the gear you get in the hardest dungeon, by running the easiest lvl 50 dungeon, then once you beat it initially, there becomes VERY little reason to run it again.

[d4rkie]

But what WE are saying, is that beating something for the challenge or experience only works ONCE. After that, there needs to be a reason to run something. If you can get gear that is just as good/sometimes better that the gear you get in the hardest dungeon, by running the easiest lvl 50 dungeon, then once you beat it initially, there becomes VERY little reason to run it again.

you forget a small detail: the TIME you have to spend to get that "easy to get" myth gear. if you're lucky, you can get full coil gear in a couple of weeks. myth gear takes at least 2 weeks to get an accessory, not the whole set.

[Sephirah]

you forget a small detail: the TIME you have to spend to get that "easy to get" myth gear. if you're lucky, you can get full coil gear in a couple of weeks. myth gear takes at least 2 weeks to get an accessory, not the whole set.

I don't understand what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that it takes more effort to get myth gear because it can take longer?

well thats the thing. if u want THE BEST setup for ur toon.

Yes I'm aware, it says that in my OP.