So which is it Yoshi?

[Welsper59]

The problem is, (most)people will always take the easy way. If you can be equally rewarded for putting in less effort, then why waste your time or efforts on the more difficult route? And running coils is not mutually exclusive from earning myth gear, if you're clearing coils, you're earning myth gear at the same time.

You should be rewarded for your efforts, not your lack of them.

I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

[Freakiie]

I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

And wanting the best gear ingame, without actually putting in any real effort (Because time spent was irrelevant right?) and not even needing it one bit because you don't do the instance where it might actually matter is not a sad state? Come on please.

Is it really such a strange concept that the biggest challenge should net the biggest rewards?

[Welsper59]

And wanting the best gear ingame, without actually putting in any real effort (Because time spent was irrelevant right?) and not even needing it one bit because you don't do the instance where it might actually matter is not a sad state? Come on please.

Is it really such a strange concept that the biggest challenge should net the biggest rewards?

It's actually not that unusual for content to be there for the sake of it being there, but that's not really the case with Coil. The game does reward you gear that is BiS for most classes in Coil, maybe not for all slots obviously, but the gear is there. Some people would just take Allagan gear over tome gear just for the sake of it being that way. Do you really think everyone that raids, even big time groups like BG, do it simply for the gear? They do it because they want to experience the content (being world first certainly had some hand in that as well). The gear is definitely enticing though, but it's typically not what motivated you to do it... you're not really "experiencing" the game if that's your outlook.

And no, it's not a strange concept to expect the biggest challenge to yield the best rewards. But if that's currently not the case, and the gear is merely a minor upgrade (if not on-par), then do it because you want to. Are you really implying that everyone (or just majority) who does a raid, ONLY does it for the gear? Like that is the absolute #1 reason to do ANYTHING endgame... it's not about experiencing what there is to be experienced...

If so, then yeah, you're probably going to throw a fit. You'd probably do that for any game though, honestly. If you're playing an MMORPG, gear cannot be the only driving force to do something. That is, assuming you aim to enjoy yourself, as you'll always be VERY disappointed. So yes, sad state to be in for folks like that.

[Zezlar]

I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

You're argument falls flat. I love challenging content, and i'll put all my effort into beating it. The problem arises once it's beaten. I'm not going to do it a second time for the sake of doing it again.

[Welsper59]

You're argument falls flat. I love challenging content, and i'll put all my effort into beating it. The problem arises once it's beaten. I'm not going to do it a second time for the sake of doing it again.

Yes, that's exactly right. My argument on that was strictly towards the raid encounter itself. Think about it like this, do you still consider it fun to farm bosses repeatedly? I'm willing to bet "no", and the only fun to be had is the moment you obtain new gear. The thing that delivers the fun is not the content that you beat, it's the reward you haven't obtained. So if players really don't see a point to doing it repeatedly, then so be it. Coil however does offer rewards for those who choose to do it... and obviously, you have to do it if you want BiS gear (for some slots). SE is clearly fine with this for now, so why aren't you?

Why argue that you have gear reasons to do it repeatedly (obviously until you obtain what you need), when that's exactly what you want? You clear content before you obtain their rewards, so why bother ever getting gear that is the best of the best, when something lesser is clearly enough? If you can answer that question, then you know why you would repeat Coil, even now.

Wow. The amount of horribly misguided assumptions in that post is amazing.

Unfortunately the only correct assumption in there is that I play MMOs. Not even gonna bother actually going into detail since all you're doing is just throwing around random assumptions about me.

They're actually questions with a preemptive response (an assumed response, obviously). It's kind of important to know how to distinguish these things in an argument.

Another edit: /sigh Too many people read my comments as though I said (or perhaps they're believing) that Coil does not offer gear that is BiS. Or that I'm saying there should be content that is a 1-shot experience. I'm isolating factors of why you would/should do something in an MMORPG, in order to get the full experience. I continuously say that you need to run Coil repeatedly to get BiS gear (obviously not all slots), which is apparently what people want (mind blowing when from people complaining of the monotony the game has). I also stress that there's reason besides gear that people would run something, even if just once. Now combine those things, and you'll see why the current system still works just fine.

[Sephirah]

@_@

It's really hard to follow anything you're saying, you're mixing up your arguments and everyone is getting lost along the way, including you. We know that some of the items in coils are BiS, and we know that the challenge is reason enough to do it.

But what WE are saying, is that beating something for the challenge or experience only works ONCE. After that, there needs to be a reason to run something. If you can get gear that is just as good/sometimes better that the gear you get in the hardest dungeon, by running the easiest lvl 50 dungeon, then once you beat it initially, there becomes VERY little reason to run it again.

[d4rkie]

But what WE are saying, is that beating something for the challenge or experience only works ONCE. After that, there needs to be a reason to run something. If you can get gear that is just as good/sometimes better that the gear you get in the hardest dungeon, by running the easiest lvl 50 dungeon, then once you beat it initially, there becomes VERY little reason to run it again.

you forget a small detail: the TIME you have to spend to get that "easy to get" myth gear. if you're lucky, you can get full coil gear in a couple of weeks. myth gear takes at least 2 weeks to get an accessory, not the whole set.

[Sephirah]

you forget a small detail: the TIME you have to spend to get that "easy to get" myth gear. if you're lucky, you can get full coil gear in a couple of weeks. myth gear takes at least 2 weeks to get an accessory, not the whole set.

I don't understand what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that it takes more effort to get myth gear because it can take longer?

well thats the thing. if u want THE BEST setup for ur toon.

Yes I'm aware, it says that in my OP.

[d4rkie]

I don't understand what you're trying to say... are you trying to say that it takes more effort to get myth gear because it can take longer?

I'm trying to say that your rewards for your efforts or farming coil are right here in front of you. while people who can't or won't farm coil will have to wait till they can get similar to coil gear. in time - many will not get full myth even when the new coil turns arrive.

[Welsper59]

Yes I'm aware, it says that in my OP.

I just don't really get the point of the arguments that are going on here. I've always understood what you mentioned in the OP, that the best gear should not be made available through tomes (as they're accessible by easy dungeons, over a long period of time), and that they should be ideally exclusive through coil. That it will give reason to do them repeatedly. I can respect that.

But what I don't get is the justification behind that reason. As you know, you still have to run coil for BiS gear. Why isn't that reason enough? You're essentially doing it for that reason anyway, even if tome rewards were non-existent. What are you going to do with that gear? You can clearly beat content without it. Is it just for a status thing? We currently have that in place. Is it for preparation for the next patch? You can easily reach that point with or without tomes. What is your justification behind wanting to find a reason to farm an instance repeatedly?

It's an honest question btw, as I would imagine most people would be content with the idea that they have more options available to them for acquiring the gear they farm for (one way or another). One of which also allows for some BiS gear to be obtained through raiding.