So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Hanabira]

I never forgot that, I mentioned it specifically. Paladin Cooldowns are the only thing that separate us. Period. Hallowed Ground is once every 5 minutes. It's 10 seconds per fight, MAYBE 20 (Not sure how long Twintania lasts) of immortality. Yes it's great. We all know. Your not opening anyone's eyes to that ability. Like we are all saying, it's Paladin Cooldowns. End of story.

Yes you said that, but you crunched very theoretical numbers like they would be on equal footing if one decided not to properly defend themselves, when 1 is clearly taking 0 damage and healers are generating 0 hate. has any pld ever kited phase 5 without using any cooldowns? then your numbers would be valid. Not to mention your numbers dont include block. Sure both war and pld can parry, so you can cancel those out on paper, but blocking makes the numbers skew greatly

Basically, what your numbers say is. if we have both pld and war, and one of them does everything they can to survive, and the other one isnt wearing a shield and does nothing to defend themselves, they are practically the same.

also, a storms eye is not healing for 250 unless you are getting a crit with a dmg buff. in most cases it heals for about 150

[Skold]

Warriors take more damage and have bad cooldowns. Warrior makes many fights harder because of mana issues and tend to take huge amounts of damage. What is thier not to get? I'm rolling around with enhanced threat, two defending rings and a extra mitigation mechanic via block. Warrior just takes too much damage.

[ZDamned]

Yes you said that, but you crunched very theoretical numbers like they would be on equal footing if one decided not to properly defend themselves, when 1 is clearly taking 0 damage and healers are generating 0 hate. has any pld ever kited phase 5 without using any cooldowns? then your numbers would be valid. Not to mention your numbers dont include block. Sure both war and pld can parry, so you can cancel those out on paper, but blocking makes the numbers skew greatly

also, a storms eye is not healing for 250 unless you are getting a crit with a dmg buff. in most cases it heals for about 150

I crunched number that are not theoretical at all. I used valued from my FC's Paladin, and MY Warrior in 30 Vitality and full VIT Accessories with the full party buff, and Actual Coil damage. If anything, I underestimated the White Mage with a Theoretical 2200 which is close.

If you are going to talk about my Storms eye example, which was just meant to play off on the minuscule REAL damage difference, then lets use real numbers again, and show exactly what you are citing. =P

Storms Eye healing for 150, and using my numbers the damage deficit is actually 330, so we are talking about a remaining 180 Damage if we use Storms Eye once.

Honestly though, what are you trying to point out with this? The fact that you need to take 8 more hits at 3000 damage before an additional Cure 2 is required vs a Paladin? So 1 extra heal every 8... Oh man, were terrible... Oh wait, that's based on if we don't use anything to heal ourselves for 8 GCD's. I think we can cover that with an Inner Beast, which lines up perfectly with 8 Cure 2 GCD's actually. Or if you wanna use a CD Thrill of Battle or a Blood Bath usage should cover that as well.

ALL that being said, Paladin Cooldowns still overshadow us, but thats being changed anyway, so it's not worth talking about them too much until we see what happens in 2.1. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the base of each class is virtually identical if not 1-2% in the Paladin Favor, which is a trade off for a lot more damage from Warriors anyway. Once cooldowns in 2.1 are addressed, we will see how it works out.

[ZDamned]

Warriors take more damage and have bad cooldowns. Warrior makes many fights harder because of mana issues and tend to take huge amounts of damage. What is thier not to get? I'm rolling around with enhanced threat, two defending rings and a extra mitigation mechanic via block. Warrior just takes too much damage.

If you use numbers, you will be taken seriously. But your just saying things with no proof, so you look ignorant and silly.

[Hanabira]

ALL that being said, Paladin Cooldowns still overshadow us, but thats being changed anyway, so it's not worth talking about them too much until we see what happens in 2.1. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the base of each class is virtually identical if not 1-2% in the Paladin Favor, which is a trade off for a lot more damage from Warriors anyway. Once cooldowns in 2.1 are addressed, we will see how it works out.

still talking about a shieldless pld lol... how do you not include something that negates a large portion of damage? and its been proven over and over again that war and pld deal relatively the same dmg

[ZDamned]

still talking about a shieldless pld lol... how do you not include something that negates a large portion of damage? and its been proven over and over again that war and pld deal relatively the same dmg

In all my time parsing, and my FC parsing, My FC Paladin in better gear with +1 Curtana, and Allagan Shield, consistantly deals 30K~ damage less than I do. Were expecting that numbe to get way different when I get my +1 on Monday. Proving that over and over, nothing has been proven. =P

As far as a shield block mitigation, I did not take that into account at all, what % of the time does a Paladin do that? and how does it compare to a Warrior Parrying? Like I said before though, I didn't take Parry into account either, but you also need to remember, Parry and Block can't happen together, so it's a bit harder than you might think to calculate.

[Hanabira]

thats good the hear about in tank situations, i think comparisons have been if both are out of tank mode. But i negated parry chance for both because they both parry about the same amount. that leaves the block chance, and to be honest i have no idea how often that happens or exactly how much is blocked.

edit: i just pulled this from a redit

1000 hits, for 100 damage each.

Hoplon: 36/200 (14% mitigation, 30% block rate)

300 blocks, 14 damage mitigated on each block, 4200 damage mitigated overall.

Kite Shield: 122/122 (22% mitigation, 22% block rate)

220 blocks, 22 damage mitigated on each block, 4840 damage mitigated overall

Scutum: 186/38 (29% mitigation, 14% block rate)

140 blocks, 29 damage mitigated on each block, 4060 damage mitigated overall.


not sure how allagan fits in there

[ZDamned]

thats good the hear about in tank situations, i think comparisons have been if both are out of tank mode. But i negated parry chance for both because they both parry about the same amount. that leaves the block chance, and to be honest i have no idea how often that happens or exactly how much is blocked.

I think on my Paladin (Curtana Holy Shield) it's 24% damage reduced, but I have no idea how often it happens... Lets just say I shield block a quite a bit more than I notice my Warrior Parrys, but I also have an indicator with Shield Swipe lighting up whenever it happens.. lol I wish we has an on parry attack.... like moving Storms Path to On parry.

[Hanabira]

mercy stroke would be great if it were an on-parry or something. on its own its terribad. and i dont believe ive ever been healed by the effect

[Kitru]

When the heals go off, it's still very balanced as you can see from my example above which uses very close to reality numbers. it sounds to me like your warrior is a terrible player.

WARs get 92% of the effective healing that a PLD does (PLD reduces damage by 80%, WAR increases it by 15%; 1.15 * .8 = .92), which means that WAR will require 8.7% more healing than a PLD over the same amount of time. It plays out with your numbers as well (2200 / .8 = 2750; 2530 / 2750 = .92). It might not seem like much when you factor in a single heal, but it does add up over a 10 minute fight.

Even if you factor in IB, there's still a loss: I manage roughly 1.2k with Inner Beast using Relic and 3/5 AF2; a similarly geared WHM is going to manage at least 1000 per Cure; assuming 1 Cure every 3 seconds to account for downtime and use of other more powerful heals, that's 60 Cures for the given time frame; 60 * 1000 * .087 = 5220 compared to 3 * 1200 = 3600 for 1620 more healing required.

The gap shrinks a lot when you use Inner Beast more than once per minute. Using Inner Beast at every possible interval will net you only 7% average +healing, which means that WAR is getting only 85.6% of a PLD's healing efficiency, so, unless 8 IBs every 3 minutes is equal to 17% of what a healer is capable of dumping into someone without any +healing mods over that same time frame, WAR is *still* a good deal behind PLD on healing efficiency: using the same healing numbers as before, 60 * 1000 * .17 = 10200 compared to 8 * 1200 = 9600 for only 600 more healing required. However, all of this is assuming only 4 man content. As soon as you hit 8 man content with 2 healers, the required healing reverses: double the healing provided by the Cures and you end up with deficiencies of 6840 and 10800, respectively.

So, basically, a WAR is never going to be able to close the gap to actually meet with a PLD, but if it uses Inner Beast near perfectly on CD, it can get pretty close. In 4 man content, a WAR can manage, at best, 99% healing efficiency (.83 + ((60 * 1000 + 8 * 1200) / (60 * 1000) - 1))). In 8 man content, a WAR can manage 95% (.92 + ((60 * 2000 + 3 * 1200) / (60 * 2000) - 1))). This groks with the anecdotal evidence most people bring up: WAR is perfectly fine in 4 man but falls behind in 8 man content. They *still* require more healing and that 5% in 8 man content is going to add up, and it only really gets close when you're using IB as efficiently as possible.

Of course, this is ignoring the monumental discrepancy between the CD suites, which just pushes that WAR healing requirement *way* down, where the discrepancy between the two tanks *really* lies.