So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Hanabira]

personally i wouldnt mind getting cures less effective than pld if self heals were up to par. self-heals right now are a joke on anything harder than AK

[ZDamned]

So Kitru, the only thing that strikes me in what you are talking about is consistent intelligent use of IB, (Sub 65% HP only!) and the fight duration. Because after so much time, it amounts to such insignificant numbers. I don't know a fight that starves out both the scholar and White Mage to the point that the 3-5 cure 1's will have been the determining factor. That would basically say that the group's collective DPS is too low to sustain the fight, and were suddenly being carried entirely by great healers.

What we should probably do is take into account exactly how much DPS Cadecus puts out, since this fight is typically the big one cited for Damage being put out on Tanks, But never have I heard of any healers unable to keep up with healing on any other fight, just Turn 4 Enmity issues..... Titan excluded because it's healer skill more so than tank cooldowns.

If were talking Turn 4 Dreadnoughts, Well.. I guess this is where my experience drops off, however I run with a Paladin, in my Coil Group, so if people are fighting for use of 2 warriors instead of 1 of each tank, then thats IMO not nice to Paladins. =(

To me 5% is not adding up enough to matter if your group is competent, and consistent. It can also easily be off set by a Bard song for MP Woes. If the fights were designed to be in excess of 45 minutes, THEN I can see where it will add up, but so far, nothign has even come close to 20 minutes long. (Again not sure about Twintania.)

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Most healers complain about the truckload, even though Warriors don't look like they take any more damage than a paladin. When the heals go off, it's still very balanced as you can see from my example above which uses very close to reality numbers. it sounds to me like your warrior is a terrible player.

EDIT! I added %'s after the initial blow, and we actually take less damage % based initially, so unless a Pally Cooldown is in play, we still LOOK like were taking less damage overall. Emphasis on look like... hehe

Your example above leaves our Rampart / Sentinel / Chance to block AND parry

Compare that to Foresight / Unchained / Infuriate / inner beast and you'll notice that Huston has a problem. Warriors cooldowns arent as strong.

[ZDamned]

Your example above leaves our Rampart / Sentinel / Chance to block AND parry

Compare that to Foresight / Unchained / Infuriate / inner beast and you'll notice that Huston has a problem. Warriors cooldowns arent as strong.

Umm, You just ignored the point of what I said...

[Kitru]

So Kitru, the only thing that strikes me in what you are talking about is consistent intelligent use of IB, (Sub 65% HP only!) and the fight duration. Because after so much time, it amounts to such insignificant numbers. I don't know a fight that starves out both the scholar and White Mage to the point that the 3-5 cure 1's will have been the determining factor. That would basically say that the group's collective DPS is too low to sustain the fight, and were suddenly being carried entirely by great healers.

If you're not overgeared for Cad, you're pretty likely to have your healers running out of manage towards the end of the fight (especially as a WAR, though a lot of that is due to CD suites; given the fact that the devs didn't expect people to do Cad to 4 stacks by using CDs, WAR performance on it is likely what's expected). The devs likely never intended healer mp to be absolutely infinite and, when you play content with relatively appropriate gear, mp levels *do* start bottoming out. Since it's pretty easy to outgear everything except for Coil (and outgearing the first boss of Coil with DL + myth gear isn't too hard either), you're not going to notice the loss.

The most important thing to bring home from those numbers is that it takes constant, unwasted IBs to bring WAR up to PLD efficiency, which is completely unrealistic. Because those numbers assumed that IB would have been used as efficiently as possible *as soon* as it was available for the conditions (i.e. 5 stacks Wrath or Infuriate resets), it's nowhere *near* realistic. In practice, you'll likely get maybe half of the contributions from IB that those numbers predicted, which pull WAR down to the 92-93% efficiency range.

I get the feeling that the numbers I did are pretty close to what the devs came up with when they were balancing the tanks, mainly because it gets *way* too close to equal for it to be an accident, as I see it. The probably didn't pay much attention to 8 man content, for whatever reason, and either ignored or were ignorant of the differences between the CD suites.

As to the "5% isn't that much", keep in mind that, in DL/AF2 gear, there's about a 5% difference in the mitigation benefits of Rampart compared to Foresight and most people notice the difference very quickly.

[Stalkster]

The op is like 4lv's away, I don't really see the point of this post considering all the info/posts/rants over "War vs Pld". People can try to use math to defend war all day. If you have both just try them both, you might like war's style better that's fine play a war. Then by having both you can clearly see the healers working a lot harder to keep you up, if you don't care about healers stay on war. Both can hold hate just fine, 1takes a lot more damage but they can self heal(assuming you can get it off, cause the healers are spam healing you anyways).

I think a lot of people like the -idea- of war being some kind of higher dps tank that even has more HP, then playing a turtle tank. While in reality all they have is more hp and less dmg migration. Then at the end of the day Pld still brings silence and a better stun, and can recharge one of it's own resources.

It's Simple for me.
1#MT'ing?: Pld
2#OT'ing? Need something stunned or silenced, Or Will your job invole OT'ing something that hits hard/will be alive for a while.: Pld
3#OT'ing? Easy trash. :War
Sadly 90% of where #3 becomes a yes, there's no reason to even bring a OT.

[Cessna]

Turn 2: This is a joke right? ADS is literally the easiest turn in coil in terms of tanking it. The Paladin has very limited advantage in this turn, as none of the attacks can be blocked and the damage is minor anyway. Most failures in this turn come from standing in bad stuff. As a Warrior I ignore repelling cannons anyway. Killed mini-ADSs at 8 stacks and have tanked the main guy up to 7 before I missed a dodge from repelling cannons and got insta-gibbed.

Pretty much this, Turn 2 is all about mechanics and not our cooldowns.

The ADS is a status boss, without those status effects it hits for garbage damage, infact its so little sometimes I can actually inner beast that damage away entirely on my own, its pretty neet when I get the chance to do that.

[Deceptus]

Inner Beast as a shield instead of a heal would help. The ability for warriors to get Keen Flurry would help. Forsight actually doing something would be nice.

Also the fact that Paladins can obtain Blood Thirst, but Warriors can't obtain Rampart is unfair. Both are class signature abilities and should be exclusive.

[Aureliami]

1. Less effective HP. Even though it looks like warriors have more HP, they actually have much less because Paladin gets a 20% damage reduction before mitigation while warriors just get a 15% incoming healing boost which just doesn't compare to the paladin damage reduction, which means healers have to work much harder to keep a warrior alive than they would a Paladin in a long fight.

2. Inner beast is terrible. The heal is kind of meh but the worst part about it is that it removes your 15% healing buff, which means you're making it EVEN HARDER for healers to keep you alive, it's really stupidly designed.

3. Warrior cooldowns suck compared to PLD. PLD gets: Hallowed Ground which lets them tank stuff warrior can only dream of, Sentinel which is like a mini-hallowed ground, Bulwark which is like Sentinel for things that can be blocked, and Rampart which is like a mini-Sentinel. Warrior doesn't get anything anywhere nearly as good.

4. Paladin gets a shield. Both classes can parry but only PLD can block, which means PLD mitigate even more damage on top of everything else.

[Irenae]

The issue with warrior is that it cannot decide if it is a Damage Dealer or a Tank!