So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Skull_Angel]

Ok so basically from what you and others said, it seems that both classes are a bit broken right now. Warrior in end game is weaker than it should be while Paladin is stronger than it should be. Hopefully they fix this soon.

I don't know if I'd call PLD broken (my healer and I overgear the content we're running, so if you wonder why she's never really healing... lol), it's at a good place imo, WAR however is certainly lacking when held on a scale with PLD. I still enjoy WAR's basic play-style the best, if it didn't force other party members to focus harder/bring their A-game more so than PLD it'd be a no-brainer which you'd find me on, haha.

[Oextra]

I don't know if I'd call PLD broken (my healer and I overgear the content we're running, so if you wonder why she's never really healing... lol), it's at a good place imo, WAR however is certainly lacking when held on a scale with PLD. I still enjoy WAR's basic play-style the best, if it didn't force other party members to focus harder/bring their A-game more so than PLD it'd be a no-brainer which you'd find me on, haha.

Lol I hear you, but imo if PLD can turn a hard mode dungeon into (basically) an easy/medium mode one while Warrior turns a hard mode dungeon into a very hard mode dungeon, it just sounds like both jobs need fine tuning. But I do respect your opinion.

[ZDamned]

Warrior is not broken, The Coil Turn 1 fight is broken.

The developers designed it so that you are mean to feed both of the enemies the entire fight, and keep them at 1-2 stacks.

I easily tank Cadecus at 3-4 Stacks, and I die at 5. Paladins were also meant to die at 5 stacks, but at 1-2 stacks, this boss is not hard at all, just more time consuming.

To say that warrior is a Broken class, because of a preferred strategy on 1 boss fight is a joke.

Any warrior losing threat to healing in Turn 4 is also not playing correctly. The amount of extra healing required for a Warrior is almost meaningless. 1 Extra heal worth of HP after every 5 casts to keep on par is NOTHING on Threat. 1 single Overpower is enough to offset that difference.

Here is a Breakdown with more realistic numbers.

WHM Full Darklite, Thyrus.
Tanks both in 2-3/5 iLvl90 Gear.

Tanks in Equal Gear would look like this.
Warrior HP = 8500
Paladin HP = 6375

Boss hits for 3000.
Warrior takes a 3000 Hit. 8,500 - 3000 = 5500 HP Left. (64.70%)
Paladin takes a 2400 Hit. 6,375 - 2400 = 3975 HP Left. (62.35%)

White Mage heals for 2200. with Cure II. (I edited this after the original post)
Warrior gains 2530 HP. 5500 + 2530 = 8030 HP Left. (94.47%)
Paladin gains 2200 HP. 3975 + 2200 = 6175 HP Left. (96.86%)

So, if you honestly think that 2% or even 2.5% off from Max HP worth of healing required to cover the gaps is going to destroy a warrior, then you are sadly mistaken. Warrior has the higher HP needed to survive the bigger looking hits without directly mitigating them. Their form of mitigation is based on dealing more total damage (Consistently BTW!) and receiving stronger heals inherently.

If you also think that the extra healing power makes a difference in Enmity, then you are also sadly mistaken. It's not noticeable unless you are actually a bad tank, because Damage Dealers will be WAY higher on Enmity than that little bit more healing every time.

Paladins are only better because of Cool Downs, and Warriors can use Inner Beast to make up for the missing healing 3-5 fold in 1 shot.

[Hanabira]

Any warrior losing threat to healing in Turn 4 is also not playing correctly. The amount of extra healing required for a Warrior is almost meaningless. 1 Extra heal worth of HP after every 5 casts to keep on par is NOTHING on Threat. 1 single Overpower is enough to offset that difference.

So, if you honestly think that 2% or even 2.5% off from Max HP worth of healing required to cover the gaps is going to destroy a warrior, then you are sadly mistaken. Warrior has the higher HP needed to survive the bigger looking hits without directly mitigating them. Their form of mitigation is based on dealing more total damage (Consistently BTW!) and receiving stronger heals inherently.

If you also think that the extra healing power makes a difference in Enmity, then you are also sadly mistaken. It's not noticeable unless you are actually a bad tank, because Damage Dealers will be WAY higher on Enmity than that little bit more healing every time.

Paladins are only better because of Cool Downs, and Warriors can use Inner Beast to make up for the missing healing 3-5 fold in 1 shot.

Youre forgetting that at that point in the fight, the PLD will use hollowed ground to secure hate while taking 0 damage, and then when they are kiting, pop other cooldowns to reduce damage and require fewer heals. Its not the difference between healing 1 or the other, its the difference between not HAVING to heal one and healing the other (who did not have a long buffer time to secure hate). Pld puts everything on easy mode, and player strats revolve around it and warrior cant always fit the slot with the expectations that it'll perform the same way.

[ZDamned]

Youre forgetting that at that point in the fight, the PLD will use hollowed ground to secure hate while taking 0 damage, and then when they are kiting, pop other cooldowns to reduce damage and require fewer heals. Its not the difference between healing 1 or the other, its the difference between not HAVING to heal one and healing the other (who did not have a long buffer time to secure hate). Pld puts everything on easy mode, and player strats revolve around it and warrior cant always fit the slot with the expectations that it'll perform the same way.

I never forgot that, I mentioned it specifically. Paladin Cooldowns are the only thing that separate us. Period. Hallowed Ground is once every 5 minutes. It's 10 seconds per fight, MAYBE 20 (Not sure how long Twintania lasts) of immortality. Yes it's great. We all know. Your not opening anyone's eyes to that ability. Like we are all saying, it's Paladin Cooldowns. End of story.

[Hanabira]

I never forgot that, I mentioned it specifically. Paladin Cooldowns are the only thing that separate us. Period. Hallowed Ground is once every 5 minutes. It's 10 seconds per fight, MAYBE 20 (Not sure how long Twintania lasts) of immortality. Yes it's great. We all know. Your not opening anyone's eyes to that ability. Like we are all saying, it's Paladin Cooldowns. End of story.

Yes you said that, but you crunched very theoretical numbers like they would be on equal footing if one decided not to properly defend themselves, when 1 is clearly taking 0 damage and healers are generating 0 hate. has any pld ever kited phase 5 without using any cooldowns? then your numbers would be valid. Not to mention your numbers dont include block. Sure both war and pld can parry, so you can cancel those out on paper, but blocking makes the numbers skew greatly

Basically, what your numbers say is. if we have both pld and war, and one of them does everything they can to survive, and the other one isnt wearing a shield and does nothing to defend themselves, they are practically the same.

also, a storms eye is not healing for 250 unless you are getting a crit with a dmg buff. in most cases it heals for about 150

[ZDamned]

Yes you said that, but you crunched very theoretical numbers like they would be on equal footing if one decided not to properly defend themselves, when 1 is clearly taking 0 damage and healers are generating 0 hate. has any pld ever kited phase 5 without using any cooldowns? then your numbers would be valid. Not to mention your numbers dont include block. Sure both war and pld can parry, so you can cancel those out on paper, but blocking makes the numbers skew greatly

also, a storms eye is not healing for 250 unless you are getting a crit with a dmg buff. in most cases it heals for about 150

I crunched number that are not theoretical at all. I used valued from my FC's Paladin, and MY Warrior in 30 Vitality and full VIT Accessories with the full party buff, and Actual Coil damage. If anything, I underestimated the White Mage with a Theoretical 2200 which is close.

If you are going to talk about my Storms eye example, which was just meant to play off on the minuscule REAL damage difference, then lets use real numbers again, and show exactly what you are citing. =P

Storms Eye healing for 150, and using my numbers the damage deficit is actually 330, so we are talking about a remaining 180 Damage if we use Storms Eye once.

Honestly though, what are you trying to point out with this? The fact that you need to take 8 more hits at 3000 damage before an additional Cure 2 is required vs a Paladin? So 1 extra heal every 8... Oh man, were terrible... Oh wait, that's based on if we don't use anything to heal ourselves for 8 GCD's. I think we can cover that with an Inner Beast, which lines up perfectly with 8 Cure 2 GCD's actually. Or if you wanna use a CD Thrill of Battle or a Blood Bath usage should cover that as well.

ALL that being said, Paladin Cooldowns still overshadow us, but thats being changed anyway, so it's not worth talking about them too much until we see what happens in 2.1. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the base of each class is virtually identical if not 1-2% in the Paladin Favor, which is a trade off for a lot more damage from Warriors anyway. Once cooldowns in 2.1 are addressed, we will see how it works out.

[Hanabira]

ALL that being said, Paladin Cooldowns still overshadow us, but thats being changed anyway, so it's not worth talking about them too much until we see what happens in 2.1. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the base of each class is virtually identical if not 1-2% in the Paladin Favor, which is a trade off for a lot more damage from Warriors anyway. Once cooldowns in 2.1 are addressed, we will see how it works out.

still talking about a shieldless pld lol... how do you not include something that negates a large portion of damage? and its been proven over and over again that war and pld deal relatively the same dmg