Monk- general discussion and feedback

[DerpyCubone]

Up to even the most recent communications from SE that involved upcoming adjustments to various jobs, they mention tweaking content so that melee DPS are less punished.

I would like to highlight this point in your qoute, so your saying because their going to adjust things, that they won't adjust GL? That logic doesn't make sense. If something is in need of adjusting, SE will adjust it. I think GL needs a tweek, others do as well. Now if SE does that is a different story, but these are the same people that said Warrior was fine, then that they were going to adjust warrior. Their play team is so much smaller then the community. They can't get to everything and they see less, which is understandable. So by trying to bring this to attention, maybe they will look at it and go "oh hey yea, this other thing would work better".

Didn't even see this:
"They design content with all jobs in mind, or at least strive to. No real issue currently that hasn't been addressed."
The fact that they are having to address things means that they did not have all the fights tuned to all jobs.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Pretty decent point, but I would argue that with Garuda, I'm still actively fighting. I'm choosing to allow my GL to wear off to avoid a large hit. I could attempt to live through the blast and keep my DPS up, I've lived before, but that's not the choice I'm making. In that specific instance, I'm still in control. Limited control, and there is a pretty clear right answer, but still control.

Also, to counter your last thing there. Don't settle, if something could be better, strive to make it that way.

[Allyrion]

I like the idea of rhythm, and I 100% agree with alot of what you said there. There is a feel too it, and GL is like finding your stride in a fight. I 100% agree with that

Which is why when the enemy gets a shield around it for 3 seconds and you lose your GL that it doesn't feel right to me.

It's like a dance almost, you get into the groove then someone cuts the music. It's annoying and yea you will spend a few seconds getting back into the groove of the track again once it starts. But atleast for me I wouldn't just stop and stand there like I was at attention, it would be a slow down, a shift to a small shuffle while I waited.

Your shuffle is equivalent to the base monk damage without GL. If you were really at a halt, you wouldn't be doing *any* damage, right?
The monk starts at a shuffle. It hops around and punches its fists together. The percent of damage with GL is really arbitrary in terms of feeling.
People know it's a lot, so they feel like they always need it.
If SE changed it so that GL dropped off one stack at a time, but GL1 did the same damage as our base attack is now. Would it feel better?
If so, I think that's just some mental babying.

I also approve of one-shot mechanics and bosses making you do things other than hit on them.
You can't always decide the terms of the battle. The feeling of helplessness, but to hide or wait, is a real thing.
For the monk, GL3 is a part of that. For my BLM, it's movement.
You're forced to do something you don't want to do, and you've got to work with that.
It wouldn't be the same losing one stack at a time and extending the duration is out of the question in my mind.

Also, to counter your last thing there. Don't settle, if something could be better, strive to make it that way.

I'm not talking about settling. I'm saying that monks will evolve into something greater naturally.
I'm satisfied with the base design and I hope they will improve upon it.
What you're talking about is not "better", it's just something else.

On your earlier point that's just an illusion of control/choice. You can say it and you can choose otherwise, but to the game it's usually the same in design. Garuda's targetable most of the time but Titan and Ifrit aren't. It's basically the same to us anyway, and in the latter cases you literally have no choice but to accept what they're about to do.
Maybe there's a scale of control, but it doesn't change that the game plays with how much control you have at times.
The more it takes away, the more it emphasizes the opponent's power. Basically the enemy cut off your music, cause it didn't like your dancing.
They said stop and you had to listen. I like that because I don't like that.
The game plays with my emotions in a good way.

[NoctisUmbra]

I would like to highlight this point in your qoute, so your saying because their going to adjust things, that they won't adjust GL? That logic doesn't make sense. If something is in need of adjusting, SE will adjust it. I think GL needs a tweek, others do as well. Now if SE does that is a different story, but these are the same people that said Warrior was fine, then that they were going to adjust warrior. Their play team is so much smaller then the community. They can't get to everything and they see less, which is understandable. So by trying to bring this to attention, maybe they will look at it and go "oh hey yea, this other thing would work better".

Didn't even see this:
"They design content with all jobs in mind, or at least strive to. No real issue currently that hasn't been addressed."
The fact that they are having to address things means that they did not have all the fights tuned to all jobs.

Did you even read the statement regarding what balance we can expect for 2.1? They listed what is to be adjusted. Explicit mentions to WAR, DRG getting buffs, BRD getting a nerf, and content being slightly tweaked to not be as punishing to melee jobs.

No mention of adjustments to MNK. If for some odd reason they decided to touch GL, MNK's core mechanic, it would merit a mention.

Don't try to compare this to WAR. WAR clearly needs some tweaking. You can see it in content... what with WAR being almost entirely locked out of Coil at the moment. MNK, on the other hand, is widely used and favored as a DPS job.

Also, yes they are adjusting content because a lot of it slightly favors ranged jobs. The risk/reward is a bit off. Still, it is DRGs getting the short end of that stick more so than MNKs. The solid teams out there know to bring a MNK to content because they know their DPS is worth the extra hands-on healing they need.

SE has a small team team of testers, yes. They do indeed look to us for feedback, true. However the forums aren't their primary source for information when it comes to balance adjustments. It is the game, and how the community at large is tackling content. How the community has decided to use the various jobs. As explained above, MNK has a nice, snug fit in basically every fight in game right now and requires little if any attention when it comes to adjustments.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip

But Monk is based around GL. Yes your doing damage without GL up, but it's far behind other classes. GL is what makes up for Monk low base potency abilities. Getting it up quickly and keeping it up is a thing. If a monk is constantly losing it on his own, you would assume he is a bad monk. Yet the game can take it off at random, those 2 things shouldn't be the same to me.

As far as one shot stuff, yea your going to lose GL for that. But it's still your choice to run away. Your still taking part in the fight. Your giving up your GL to keep fighting, not just losing it for no reason. My rant is more geared towards non interaction things. Titan phase shifts, soloing enemies... which no one seems to want to counter me on that one btw, things of that nature.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

I never said they were going to change monk in 2.1. I said they had to adjust things because things needed adjusting. Things are out of balance, not working as intended, whatever reason you wanna give. You had mentioned that all the fights were tuned to the jobs, I was using 2.1 to point out that they are not. So a lopsided fight is very possible. Also I wasn't comparing monk to warrior in terms of output/usefulness. I was saying that just because SE says/doesn't say things one day, doesn't mean a change isn't needed/coming the next.

As far as other class balances, yea there are some nerfs and buffs needed other places. Again I'm not asking for a change in DPS output on monk, Just a change to make it smoother.

A good example that has happend, look at it like the SCH/SMN pet bar. Before you couldn't use it and cast at the same time. Now you can. It's a nice QoL change. I view this along those lines... just not as needed.

[NoctisUmbra]

But Monk is based around GL. Yes your doing damage without GL up, but it's far behind other classes. GL is what makes up for Monk low base potency abilities. Getting it up quickly and keeping it up is a thing. If a monk is constantly losing it on his own, you would assume he is a bad monk. Yet the game can take it off at random, those 2 things shouldn't be the same to me.

As far as one shot stuff, yea your going to lose GL for that. But it's still your choice to run away. Your still taking part in the fight. Your giving up your GL to keep fighting, not just losing it for no reason. My rant is more geared towards non interaction things. Titan phase shifts, soloing enemies... which no one seems to want to counter me on that one btw, things of that nature.

You keep saying its not about DPS, then you say stuff like this.

There exists no content in game right now where MNK is uniquely unfavorable for on the basis of DPS. A MNK can enter every content and come out top DPS.

The game will toss mechanics at you where you're forced to drop GL3 to survive, or simply because there is nothing to hit. This effects all MNKs. One of the things that make a good MNK is making sure you never drop your GL3 outside of said events. Thus, the 2 things are not the same. One is not in your control. The other is. When Titan shifts phases, you will lose GL. Not your fault. You, as a MNK, are not expected to maintain it through that. If you somehow do, kudos - you are outstanding. If you ever drop GL3 outside when mechanics are no excuse, it is entirely your fault as it was under your control.

I never said they were going to change monk in 2.1. I said they had to adjust things because things needed adjusting. Things are out of balance, not working as intended, whatever reason you wanna give. You had mentioned that all the fights were tuned to the jobs, I was using 2.1 to point out that they are not. So a lopsided fight is very possible. Also I wasn't comparing monk to warrior in terms of output/usefulness. I was saying that just because SE says/doesn't say things one day, doesn't mean a change isn't needed/coming the next.

As far as other class balances, yea there are some nerfs and buffs needed other places. Again I'm not asking for a change in DPS output on monk, Just a change to make it smoother.

A good example that has happend, look at it like the SCH/SMN pet bar. Before you couldn't use it and cast at the same time. Now you can. It's a nice QoL change. I view this along those lines... just not as needed.

Sure, tweaks may be made in the future for whatever reason. Currently, none are needed.

Also, the fixes to SMN/SCH were necessary. In all honesty, it was probably originally intended to work that way, but it didn't at release. Not surprising, since they had to rush ACN and its jobs to get them in by launch.

The problem is, the adjustments suggested in this thread are NOT QoL adjustments no matter what way you try to spin them. You may not want to talk about DPS (or at least say you don't) but those adjustments will in fact mess with that balance.

Otherwise, you're talking about adjusting MNK DPS to fit better with a new core GL mechanic that builds/drops at a different pace (perhaps 1 at a time as mentioned) which requires redoing all the logistics behind the job. All for what? Cuz for all intents and purposes 5 people* don't think it feels right.

Nope.

*vocal minority - not literally 5

[Cynric]

The reason why those mechanics exist is to make the fight more interesting, if it were you fighting Titan(A primal being mind you) and he jumped faaaaaar up in the air to come down on you, You're going to lose momentum. It isn't fair but it's how it goes. Without these mechanics every primal would just be tank and spank. The invincible barriers, Phase shifts, etc. affect all DPS, Drg's lose buffs, DoT's don't do damage, if you don't do damage, you don't advance stances, it works the same way with stone skin, it's basically like missing as they disappear to the sky.

It might not be fair but as a Primal it's just one of the many abilities they have. Is the fact that we kill them hundreds of times and they keep coming back fair? No it isn't, but that's one of their abilities too.

Fighting the primals and things that go beyond your characters normal limitations, you can't really go in expecting a fair fight.

[Allyrion]

But Monk is based around GL. Yes your doing damage without GL up, but it's far behind other classes. GL is what makes up for Monk low base potency abilities. Getting it up quickly and keeping it up is a thing. If a monk is constantly losing it on his own, you would assume he is a bad monk. Yet the game can take it off at random, those 2 things shouldn't be the same to me.

As far as one shot stuff, yea your going to lose GL for that. But it's still your choice to run away. Your still taking part in the fight. Your giving up your GL to keep fighting, not just losing it for no reason. My rant is more geared towards non interaction things. Titan phase shifts, soloing enemies... which no one seems to want to counter me on that one btw, things of that nature.

Well, like I said in my edit above. Sometimes it's a choice sometimes it's not. If Titan was still targetable when he jumped, but he would one shot you if you tried to attack him, it would retain the same illusion of control as Garuda. But nothing with GL would've changed.

A good monk should only lose GL3 when they have to, a bad monk loses it more often. I don't think it's really the same.
For powerful enemies, they're ripping the choice away.

For solo-ing and between dungeons pulls, it's usually not a big deal.
For dungeons, the tank is fast enough, you can keep it up. If not, you cool down and it's not a huge deal. It doesn't make it harder, since you only do sub-optimal damage on the first mob and then great damage afterwards.

I really don't think they need to change any of this for solo-ing. I never found it troublesome as a monk.
The positional attacks are a much bigger issue for solo-ing than GL, but I'm fine with that too.
I don't think solo-ing is worth balancing since it's an MMO.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Because that's never happened before, a class being resigned with a new twist on a mechanic. >.>

As far as the DPS, you think you "got me" there I guess, by pointing it out. However you really should look at the context. I'm was talking about Monk DPS without GL at all. Not while trying to build it up, not while keeping it at 3 stacks, I mean at all. As in it did not exist. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my meaning on that. It is late and I sometimes don't come off the clearest over text. But no, it's not a DPS thing no matter how bad you try and make it. I do not think something that would ease rotation screw ups is good for monk in the long run, and yes that means my earlier idea is a bad one. I'm well aware of this. I didn't put much thought into it when I wrote it out.

I do not think the game should force you to drop GL without getting something in return. Generally that something would be surviving the fight, but other things can be traded I'm sure. Run over here to get this buff kinda deal, or hit this switch, stuff like that. In Primal terms, I have no issue with losing GL to dodge Garuda's AOE, I should not lose GL because she teleported away and nothing happend, or I couldn't move quick enough to her, assuming that it is not my fault for being out of position in the first place. I do not think that is good design to handicap 1 Job more then the others, by removing their main dps buff that the Job works to keep up.

Solo is worth balancing for, while yes this is an MMO. You are forced to solo in the game. There does need to be balance. Atleast somewhat between the jobs. One shouldn't have a major disadvantage over the others when it comes to something as simple as farming, not counting for job role of course.