The account suspensions and gil reset leave a black mark on this game.

[scarebearz]

Such a load of nonsense by some people.

If you have an item or made it, you can put it for sale as whatever you like, if it sells or not is another matter.

We played exactly as intended, yet you cant see beyond your jealousy.

[Pygar]

They are indeed still removing gil. 1/3rd of my gil was removed overnight from my character.

Paid for 6months on two accounts and I wont touch this game again..

Think of it this way, THIS WILL CONTINUE as long as you keep seeing RMT and Bots and SE are clearly unable to deal with them...They will punish YOU!

[Nica]

personally i think you have get what you deserve... at the start of the game a lot of people, almost everybody, have said, the gil generate is not enough... still the crafter have continue to sell stuff at price often ridiculous...

You know what the funny part is? Back then it was people like us (experienced crafters) who raised the alarm that the economy on a macro level have too many sinks and not enough fountains(something Yoshi-P himself confirmed), and just about everybody then told us we were wrong, greedy, and lazy for wanting to increase gil generation to balance the economy, often times trying to justify their position with “lol, I can make money gathering/crafting easily, there is no problem!!!”

Not a month later, those same “almost everybody” turns right around and say “see, we told you there wasn’t enough gil in the system! You guys are just being greedy for charging too much!”

The 180 would make politicians proud.

what it did lead to? the RMT was on the rise...

Non-sequitur, RMTs concentrate their efforts on the most profitable games, which tends to be the new and popular ones, which for the moment is ARR.

what is amusing it's mostly new player server that have seen some of the most amazing stuff... like people getting more of 25M in 1 month... when people was generating with them story quest around 250.000 gils...

/shrug, same thing happens in every MMO ever, the first to climb the crafting/gathering ladder in a new server always rake in massive profits. It was no different in 1.0.

And where are all those people who kept saying there is no gil generation problem, and that they can make 15-30k every day easy from leves?

you did play with the market to the point to squeeze insane amount of gils from a server that was news...

10-15% profit is not what I’d consider “insane”

don't tell me you have never thing one second hey some of the gils i get are from the RMT, maybe i must stop the time to see what will happend! never you have think at this and look at you.

Because it shouldn’t be needed. Everyone in the game is holding some gil from RMTs, it is unavoidable.

Except you didn't have a market yet. You had wild speculation inflated by people with illegal gil.

You’re presuming here that the majority of the gil supply were illicit, do you have anything to back up that assertion? Wild speculation is literally part of every new MMO/server launch, is every one of those inflated by RMT?

well i prefer go play than continue this, you simply don't want to admit that you have part of fault in the trouble...
instead to move on, you are waiting there, screaming, crying... for some even threating them to get the gaming press or to use the law...

Resorting to personal attacks now are we? Moreover, if SE is completely in the right as you’re claiming, why would you be afraid of gaming press coverage?

The difference here is, people are being told they need those 4m gil bracelets and 2.5m gil rings before they start running end game dungeons and are griefed when they get there if they don't have them.

That sounds like the fault of the rest of the player base -ironically, the DoW/M part of it that are blaming crafters for high prices.

So what you have here is the battle classes people setting the price of those expensive items by pricing the ingredients high, driving the perceived needs for those expensive items with their elitist attitudes, and turning around and lay all the blame on the crafters, how dare they create these items and sell them at these ridiculous prices after they bought our ridiculously expensive materials!

I didn't care to upgrade my jewelery before I started AK and I did fine without it, but some people who aren't as confident in their abilities, or have never really done end game in MMOs before, may not know what to expect and end up thinking they NEED these items.

Ignorance does not excuse illicit behavior, nor does it allow the offender to shirk responsibility and blame others for their actions.

[Alcyon_Densetsu]

I love it when some people don't respond to others' points, all the while keeping repeating the same thing over and over again. The point of a debate is not to convince others but to respond to each other's points, you know; conviction is then left to each and everyone's take on the discourse. I'd like to see how the white knights address the "blame the victim" logic that they keep defending without ever replying the points made by others.

Specifically, I'd like them to respond to these two simple points:
- if it costs 1M to make something, why should I sell that finished product for any less? Am I responsible for the prices of the mats?
- if I assault someone and rob their money, and then use that money to buy something from a shop, does that make the shop owner "responsible" too? Does he instantly become guilty of assault, meaning he'd go to jail with me and his insurance would refuse to pay him for his loss? If it were possible (non-perishable good), would a judge refuse to give him the sold goods back, while giving the money back to the person victim of assault?

That's something people with absolutely no understanding of economics simply forget here. In real-life, we have insurances, which are not just there for show. You don't buy a Ferrari without a bank check, either (which means "money professionals", a bank, did the background check to make sure the buyer is solvable). In-game, there's no such thing: all the insurance we have are SE, and they happen to be the bank, police and judges as well. You don't get to background check people, you don't get to set other goods prices than the ones you sell. The whole concept of "responsibility" thrown in this topic is totally out of line and bears no resemblance to real life whatsoever, because the setting is entirely different. Morally, even, I just don't see how making a 1 to 10% profit on a crafted item is arguably "bad". Inflated prices due to RMT? Maybe, but not the middleman's fault. Clearly the game maker's and those who bought gils. Innocent people being sanctioned as a result of inflated prices? Sorry, it doesn't strike me as legit an action nor smart a move by any stretch of the imagination. The whole silence thereafter is making things worse.

A very valid commercial principle, in real life, has been violated here, however, by SE: they sanctioned honest customers, in terms of play days (real money); also in-game, in terms of gils and possessions (not giving back the items these supposedly "innocent" players sold despite still taking their gils away: is this how you treat an innocent victim?). Sanctioning honest customers is something a "responsible" company shouldn't do, ever. And if it's not the case and all the witnesses here are just liars, then I'd very much like to hear about it from SE. Their obnoxious silence, in this case, is a strong hint that they know their explanation of the matter would cause a public outrage.

Here's the nub of the issue: when the people defending you, as a company, must resort to fallacies and backward logic, you have to wonder how dire your situation is. That your biggest die-hard fans ─those that will stay no matter what you do─ look like fools isn't a good indication of success, because most other people, who are not die-hard fans, will just end up leaving. That the people who have a beef with you have very valid arguments ─still unanswered─ based on precedents in pretty much every other respectable virtual world, including some that are competing with yours as we speak, is a clear indication of potential failure however. The worse is that we probably all wish for this game to be great, or we wouldn't be here; but SE turning a blind eye on our opinions doesn't let us help them. At least on this issue.

Oh, and as to the term "white knight": we know where it came from. The word has evolved to mean "blindly defending someone or something against all odds, often in blatant indulgence of moral and/or technical cons". It's been years. So let's just move along and accept language is a living thing, that words and expressions change over time.

[OldGeezer]

You’re presuming here that the majority of the gil supply were illicit, do you have anything to back up that assertion? Wild speculation is literally part of every new MMO/server launch, is every one of those inflated by RMT?

All the stories are "I was the first crafter/gatherer on a new server and made millions", not I'm a a level 35 crafter with 400k, got suspended, and relogged with only 4k to my name. Where are these victims of this atrocity? Considering most new people who make 50 only have around 250k to their name, they can't buy the items that went for 100k-1mill+. Only the gill buyers could.

[Lisotte]

All the stories are "I was the first crafter/gatherer on a new server and made millions", not I'm a a level 35 crafter with 400k, got suspended, and relogged with only 4k to my name. Where are these victims of this atrocity? Considering most new people who make 50 only have around 250k to their name, they can't buy the items that went for 100k-1mill+. Only the gill buyers could.

Or the people selling the mats to make those expensive items. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to craft those expensive items? Crafters are making a small percentage of actual profit on those items.

[Pygar]

All the stories are "I was the first crafter/gatherer on a new server and made millions", not I'm a a level 35 crafter with 400k, got suspended, and relogged with only 4k to my name. Where are these victims of this atrocity? Considering most new people who make 50 only have around 250k to their name, they can't buy the items that went for 100k-1mill+. Only the gill buyers could.

I only have a level 30 Botanist and made all my money, from day one early release onward, selling mats and I woke up this a.m. to a third of my gil gone.....Not Millions or anything mind you, not even close but they still took a third of my gil. I find it VERY hard to believe this was anything other than a base number they picked, otherwise the ammount taken back would reflect (and this possible but very unlikely since other people need mats as well) that the largest percentage of sales I made were to RMT....


Quite frankly, if they want to go so far as to push an honest player away from the game, I suggest instead they hire more people to deal with RMT or this will be an ongoing likelyhood of continued gill reduction and that's why I have no interest in playing. I don't want to work against RMT/Bots AND SE!

[OldGeezer]

Or the people selling the mats to make those expensive items. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to craft those expensive items? Crafters are making a small percentage of actual profit on those items.

You mean the fella who spent 300k on mats and sold the +2 star item on the marker for 1.25 million? Yeah, 400% markup is peanuts. The real question is does it cost them that much for the same materials now that markets have stabilized? I'm betting their costs have gone down significantly.

I only have a level 30 Botanist and made all my money, from day one early release onward, selling mats and I woke up this a.m. to a third of my gil gone.....Not Millions or anything mind you, not even close but they still took a third of my gil. I find it VERY hard to believe this was anything other than a base number they picked, otherwise the ammount taken back would reflect (and this possible but very unlikely since other people need mats as well) that the largest percentage of sales I made were to RMT....

Quite frankly, if they want to go so far as to push an honest player away from the game, I suggest instead they hire more people to deal with RMT or this will be an ongoing likelyhood of continued gill reduction and that's why I have no interest in playing. I don't want to work against RMT/Bots AND SE!

Now this is a development. Not everyone was hit with the 90% brush. Vetting was done to accounts. Not to the extent that innocent players would want, but I doubt SE assigned enough resources to properly comb though the tens of millions of AH transaction that occured. The plot thickens.

[jdnyc]

I remember ArenaNet started banning people and everyone was innocent. "ArenaNet is just banning whomever they like!" was the charge.

So ANet did an AMA on Reddit. All players had to do was give their character name and ask why they were banned.

The replies....omg....the replies we're priceless.

I think some stuff is legitimate. Probably the money that was earned into the system is marked and removed. Whomever happened to be holding that money is seeing it taken. Nothing personal, but a very Austerity measure way of handling the situation for sure.
They def need to do something about the botters.

[Astropop]

Personally I think its all a big giant loop. There have been good points raised on this thread on both sides of the coin. Myself, I wasn't hit with any fines/tempbans but I also didn't try to make money.

I can see how the first crafter on any of the new servers would rake in lots of money. Just synthing the relic weapons alone would account for a good amount of gil generation. And you know those who are rushing endgame will pay that 200k (whatever they earned getting to 50) to be the first/one of the first to hold their relic in their respective servers. Add to the fact that those players will then turn around and sell the 2star mats to fund their other gear needs, and you get a good turn around in cash.

I don't think you can blame the crafter for doing those synths, taking that cash in, and turning to buy those materials to make bigger stuff. The crafters want to be the 1st to be able to craft those high end items also. Worlds first still work in crafters eyes also. I don't believe blame should be placed on the crafters because the is a very legimitate plausable explination for how they made their gil. As a crafter I placed many things on the market for prices much higher than I beleived they were worth. Some sold, most did not. I just lowered those prices and waited patiently until things began to sell and could guage where the market really stood.

I understand the side of the logic that people use to say: "the game is new, there shouldn't be that much gil available." It should not fall to any player, In my opinion, to know how much money is available. For all a crafter knows, an end game FC pooled their funds to better gear their main tank, or healer, to give them a better chance to complete content quickly. The race was on for all of that.

I keep hoping through all of this, that SE has more ammo in their deck than they are letting on. I keep hoping that the things I have read are untrue, and they have concrete evidence to show that somewhere along the line those players did something they know to be against the EULA and that we are only seeing those trying to smear SE repeating their claims. I keep hoping, and based on the past, I think that is all I'll ever have is hope, because if past trends hold true, nobody will ever come out and prove anything. It will all just be a wildfire until it burns itself out. Burnt players will abandon ship, the playerbase will decline until only the loyals remain, and then it will all be a "remember when."

If you were unjustly hit with these events, I am sorry for you. If you were justly hit with these events, and then come here complaining, I hope karma revisits you. Only you will know the honest truth of your actions.