Highly Notorious Monsters

[Alhanelem]

It's just... it blows my mind on so many levels that anybody thinks wait times are the whole reason HNMs are fun/interesting... it's like the only area of any game in existence where I've seen people want it to take forever and be easy instead of not waiting and having it be a challenge...

Like I said before though, I like having certain spawning conditions for them (and small NMs too).
Waiting for a few minutes until it's morning/the weather changes/etc. is no big deal.
Waiting for hours is, though.

You're so good at saying what I'm trying to say in a lot less words. lol

[VitoScaletta]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

[Atoli]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive,[...]

But that's just not very good game design.
If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard, not the way people can try it.
Or by only making materials drop which have to be gathered from different HNMs AND be combined by a high lvl crafter.
There are so many ways to make items exclusive, why use the laziest (for the developer) and most riddiculous (for the player) way?

[Alhanelem]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

Drop rates, my friend, drop rates. Or force pops that aren't easy to obtain.

Also, this is less about the time it takes from one spawn to the next and more about the time you end up waiting even when you know it's coming. A 24 hour NM that just pops every 24 hours is fine. A 24 hour NM where you have to wait for 3 hours, checking every 30 minutes, for it to pop or not pop is NOT fine.

the "3 kings" in FFXI were changed to force pops. Since these force pops were tied to 99 kindred seal BCNMs, they were not exactly in huge abundance, and the drops from the HNMs actually became more rare as a result. You don't have to have spawn windows or huge wait times to keep an item relatively rare.

If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard,

This.

The hard mode rivenroad fight is a good example. Not everyone could beat that- so even though you could challenge it as much as you wanted, you didn't see every single player running around with white ravens on.

[Exn]

I shouldn't be locked out of a sweet drop if I'm not willing to NOT play the game for 2-3 hours straight.

I beg to differ. And since we seem to fundamentally disagree, I doubt we'll find much common ground here.

Your comments earlier, for me, just further suggest you had very little experience with HNMs in XI, especially that one about Ixion. (but then again I guess every server is different..). I never mentioned Ixion/SW because they didn't use the traditional pop windows, and actually did have the need to stay alert over a few hours to camp. If that wasn't your cup of tea, no one ever forced you to do it. I never got anything personally from Ixion the entire time i was with my shell, and only one drop from SW, and still loved every minute of the content. Those fights were very rewarding and I enjoyed the hunt throughout multiple zones scanning horizons with other shells hoping to be the first ones when it pops.

I don't enjoy leveling crafting, sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task with very little or no risk. I'd rather no levels in crafts cause the leveling process IMO is just pointless. I however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy crafting. I don't enjoy quest based solo leveling because I feel it defeats the purpose of an MMO. It encourages solo play all the way to endgame IMO, and you miss out on more enriched leveling experience, a poor setup for endgame since you won't be soloing that.. I however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy quest based leveling.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it.

[Alhanelem]

I beg to differ. And since we seem to fundamentally disagree, I doubt we'll find much common ground here.

Your comments earlier, for me, just further suggest you had very little experience with HNMs in XI,

I have EXTENSIVE experience with every HNM except DI. I've been to dozens and dozens of 3kings kills. I know what it's like to fight an HNM. And my point stands. You don't know me, so you are in no position to say how much or little experience I have.

You're right. We fundamentally disagree and there is no common ground. However there can still be plenty of understanding.

As I explained in my last post. Mere waiting does not have to govern who gets what. There are many other ways (better ways) to handle it. HNMs were a poorly designed system in their original state. Yes, they did the job of making rare stuff rare. That's fine. But they did a horrible job of making endgame content actually fun. It is beyond my comprehension why you would think half a dozen 30 minute spawn windows is good game design. There is no good reason for it.

Fafnir and friends weren't even particularly hard when they were newer. I want rare gear to be rare because the fights are hard to beat, not because 100 other people are standing in a room trying to be the first one to press their provoke button.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it either.

I don't enjoy leveling crafting, sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task with very little or no risk.

To me, the typical HNM camp in FFXI was just as mindless. Sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task (doing nothing) with very little or no risk. What do spawn windows do to make the gear more rare? Nothing. Even if the spawn windows never existed, and it was a flat once a day spawn, around the same number of rare drops would exist.

Seriously- what risk was there in pulling HNMs? Only a few of them were ever challenging, and those weren't the most heavily camped for the most part.

It just plain baffles me why people would rather the challenge being the lucky guy to win the clam instead of the one to survive the challenging battle.

This all ignores cheating by the way. And cheating at HNMs was fairly common. the most likely reason the system was changed in the first place was to eliminate the impact of claim bots and cheat tools.

however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy crafting.

Well its a good thing I'm not proposing anything to be removed from the game, considering we don't have HNM yet or this thread wouldn't exist.

I never mentioned Ixion/SW because they didn't use the traditional pop windows, and actually did have the need to stay alert over a few hours to camp. If that wasn't your cup of tea, no one ever forced you to do it.

to me, those NMs were actually better designed. The only reason I never did Dark Ixion is because the HNM LS i had for years had broken just before it came out. And, for obvious reasons, I chose not to pursue another one and instead joined an LS focused on other endgame events.

[schism]

The waiting sucked thats for sure but its a system they can definitely build on and make better. I just dont want to see every lvl 50 with a Ridill running around. Gotta keep the rarity and the thrill involved.

[Alhanelem]

The waiting sucked thats for sure but its a system they can definitely build on and make better. I just dont want to see every lvl 50 with a Ridill running around. Gotta keep the rarity and the thrill involved.

As I said, there's plenty of ways to offer rare prizes without making people stand around and do nothing for several hours a day.

Can't we come up with a more engaging way to offer rare gear? Cant we design HNMs such that they are a fun experience and hard to get items from because they're challenging not because of luck?

[Warlock]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

[schism]

We can only hope they can.

As I said, there's plenty of ways to offer rare prizes without making people stand around and do nothing for several hours a day.

Can't we come up with a more engaging way to offer rare gear? Cant we design HNMs such that they are a fun experience and hard to get items from because they're challenging not because of luck?