Highly Notorious Monsters

[VitoScaletta]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

[Atoli]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive,[...]

But that's just not very good game design.
If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard, not the way people can try it.
Or by only making materials drop which have to be gathered from different HNMs AND be combined by a high lvl crafter.
There are so many ways to make items exclusive, why use the laziest (for the developer) and most riddiculous (for the player) way?

[Alhanelem]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

Drop rates, my friend, drop rates. Or force pops that aren't easy to obtain.

Also, this is less about the time it takes from one spawn to the next and more about the time you end up waiting even when you know it's coming. A 24 hour NM that just pops every 24 hours is fine. A 24 hour NM where you have to wait for 3 hours, checking every 30 minutes, for it to pop or not pop is NOT fine.

the "3 kings" in FFXI were changed to force pops. Since these force pops were tied to 99 kindred seal BCNMs, they were not exactly in huge abundance, and the drops from the HNMs actually became more rare as a result. You don't have to have spawn windows or huge wait times to keep an item relatively rare.

If you want certain items to be and STAY really exclusive and valuable, you should do so by making the fight itsself hard,

This.

The hard mode rivenroad fight is a good example. Not everyone could beat that- so even though you could challenge it as much as you wanted, you didn't see every single player running around with white ravens on.

[Alhanelem]

I beg to differ. And since we seem to fundamentally disagree, I doubt we'll find much common ground here.

Your comments earlier, for me, just further suggest you had very little experience with HNMs in XI,

I have EXTENSIVE experience with every HNM except DI. I've been to dozens and dozens of 3kings kills. I know what it's like to fight an HNM. And my point stands. You don't know me, so you are in no position to say how much or little experience I have.

You're right. We fundamentally disagree and there is no common ground. However there can still be plenty of understanding.

As I explained in my last post. Mere waiting does not have to govern who gets what. There are many other ways (better ways) to handle it. HNMs were a poorly designed system in their original state. Yes, they did the job of making rare stuff rare. That's fine. But they did a horrible job of making endgame content actually fun. It is beyond my comprehension why you would think half a dozen 30 minute spawn windows is good game design. There is no good reason for it.

Fafnir and friends weren't even particularly hard when they were newer. I want rare gear to be rare because the fights are hard to beat, not because 100 other people are standing in a room trying to be the first one to press their provoke button.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it.

Don't worry, I know you still don't get it either.

I don't enjoy leveling crafting, sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task with very little or no risk.

To me, the typical HNM camp in FFXI was just as mindless. Sitting in one spot repeating the same mindless task (doing nothing) with very little or no risk. What do spawn windows do to make the gear more rare? Nothing. Even if the spawn windows never existed, and it was a flat once a day spawn, around the same number of rare drops would exist.

Seriously- what risk was there in pulling HNMs? Only a few of them were ever challenging, and those weren't the most heavily camped for the most part.

It just plain baffles me why people would rather the challenge being the lucky guy to win the clam instead of the one to survive the challenging battle.

This all ignores cheating by the way. And cheating at HNMs was fairly common. the most likely reason the system was changed in the first place was to eliminate the impact of claim bots and cheat tools.

however don't think that content should be removed from the game because I don't enjoy crafting.

Well its a good thing I'm not proposing anything to be removed from the game, considering we don't have HNM yet or this thread wouldn't exist.

I never mentioned Ixion/SW because they didn't use the traditional pop windows, and actually did have the need to stay alert over a few hours to camp. If that wasn't your cup of tea, no one ever forced you to do it.

to me, those NMs were actually better designed. The only reason I never did Dark Ixion is because the HNM LS i had for years had broken just before it came out. And, for obvious reasons, I chose not to pursue another one and instead joined an LS focused on other endgame events.

[Exn]

to me, those NMs were actually better designed. The only reason I never did Dark Ixion is because the HNM LS i had for years had broken just before it came out. And, for obvious reasons, I chose not to pursue another one and instead joined an LS focused on other endgame events.

So now the HNM that you actually did have to sit around and stare for 2-3 hours are the ones that are better designed? When you just said your not willing to have to sit around for 2-3 hours....? Yet the window system which actually gives you breaks is the subpar system given your logic?? Ok, can't argue with crazy. To each his/her own.

[Warlock]

I used to think time sinks like HNM spawns served no purpose, but it did, it made items a lot more exclusive, if Simurgh spawned once every 2-3 hours everyone and their grandmother would've had Strider boots. It serves a bigger purpose then being a big inconvenience to you.

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

[Exn]

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

Exactly, that noone gave a crap about..

Gimme strider boots over white ravens any and every day of the week...

[Alhanelem]

You mean like the 100% drop rate White Ravens?

I'd say those are pretty exclusive. No new player from here on will ever have them, and not every current player was able to obtain them either.

So now the HNM that you actually did have to sit around and stare for 2-3 hours are the ones that are better designed?

No... because as you said yourself, you had to be active- you had to be looking for them to find them. Not standing in one spot for hours at a time. Also, Dark Ixion couldn't even be claimed by normal means. You had to have a special item to fight him. This makes him a lot different from your typical HNM.

As I've said several times within the span of a few posts. There are lots of ways we can create big scary world spawn monsters and have them drop rare items without it being an AFK-for-29.5-of-30-minutes provoke lottery. People are just clinging to the old systems because that's what they've always known and for some reason i still don't understand, they find being afk for hours thrilling.

I'd honestly like to see more stuff like AV and pandy warden... just not quite as cryptic and somewhat conceivable to beat at the level cap they were introduced at.

Yet the window system which actually gives you breaks is the subpar system given your logic??

It's the 30 seconds of suspense between each window that gives you a break from the monotony of absolutely nothing happening, not the other way around. I don't see the 30 minutes between each spawn window as a "break." It's not like I'd been working hard in the 30 seconds of anticipation of the pop or working hard walking to the dragon's aery.

[Exn]

I'd say those are pretty exclusive. No new player from here on will ever have them, and not every current player was able to obtain them either.

No... because as you said yourself, you had to be active- you had to be looking for them to find them. Not standing in one spot for hours at a time. Also, Dark Ixion couldn't even be claimed by normal means. You had to have a special item to fight him. This makes him a lot different from your typical HNM.

As I've said several times within the span of a few posts. There are lots of ways we can create big scary world spawn monsters and have them drop rare items without it being an AFK-for-29.5-of-30-minutes provoke lottery. People are just clinging to the old systems because that's what they've always known and for some reason i still don't understand, they find being afk for hours thrilling.

I'd honestly like to see more stuff like AV and pandy warden... just not quite as cryptic and somewhat conceivable to beat at the level cap they were introduced at.

It's the 30 seconds of suspense between each window that gives you a break from the monotony of absolutely nothing happening, not the other way around. I don't see the 30 minutes between each spawn window as a "break." It's not like I'd been working hard in the 30 seconds of anticipation of the pop or working hard walking to the dragon's aery.

See your still missing your own quote. You said 'you should not be locked out of a reward if you can not play the game for 2-3 hours straight.'. Regardless of the fact that your active, it's still 2-3 hours, as are many events in XI, including just some simple leveling. But as you said, since you don't have that kind of time, that kind of content shouldn't be provided. And I would disagree.

I do however agree that the 30-60secs at the window was the suspense for those HNM that were on that system, which is why I explained in detail all the things that we (and others who'd rather not just simply twiddle thumbs)did in between those windows. We're just going in circles and it's late for me.... so... yeah..