Highly Notorious Monsters

[schism]

I agree with you.

There is nothing wrong with this model.. The model becomes bad when people expect to start seeing something every 30min cycle. Or when someone who plays 30mins feel entitled to have the same progression as someone playing 6hrs a day. The all reward no work model is ruining the mmo genre. People need to start having to work towards a goal again. Not jsut being handed the best gear in the game by loging online.

The hard content being a replacement argument does not work. Because there is no such thing as hard content once it is learned. Strategies will get posted and people will all start beating it. Only way content can be hard is if someone actually was controlling the boss. If it is computerized it follows a pattern which can be figured out and a strat can easily be formed.

[Alhanelem]

Obviously a lot of people hate the idea of HNMs but it's honestly some of the best experiences I ever had in FFXI. This is my outlook on it.

Most of us don't hate HNMs, we just hate the waiting game. I'd LOVE HNMs if it was all about the NM itself and the gear was rare and amazing because the fight was hard. The only reason I didn't like FFXI's HNMs is because you spent most of your time waiting. Yes, if you got creative you could ensure the time wasn't totally wasted, but for the most part, that's what people did: wait. 960 posts later and I still dont understand why people think having to not play the game for 30 minutes, check the game for 30 seconds to see if the NM pops, then go back to not playing the game and repeat that several times is good game design. Yes, I suppose it is one way to ensure that gear is rare, by making it so no sane person would be willing to not play the game they paid good money for for several hours just to for a *chance* to fight an NM that has a *chance* to drop the rare item.

I just don't see any of that as necessary to either have nice gear rewards or a competitive spirit/atomsphere.

I seriously think it's going to be a game where you can get some of the best gear with only playing 30 min to an hour at a time. That is what people want right? It's sad but true.

I don't understand why the best gear in the game should only be accessible to people who play the game like it's a job and not like it's an actual game. It's absolutely unhealthy when a game requires you to play it as many hours a day as you would work a job. Why can't gear rarity come from challenge rather than waiting forever and ever for a mob to spawn?

Honestly FFXIV already did a decent job of that with the primal fights. Despite their best efforts, some people just couldn't beat garuda, or hard rivenroad. They just aren't good enough and that's okay. It's a lot better than not even having a chance because you don't have the time to waste being idle for hours and hours.

I had a lot of fun battling some of FFXI's hardest HNMs. I just didn't have fun sitting around waiting for certain ones to pop when there were a lot of other things in the game that i could have accomplished. Tiamat was one of the best ones- for a while people didn't really understand the exact pop windows/times and for a while it didn't matter, because Tiamat was a challenge when it was new and it was up all the time because it was a tough fight. Vrtra is another example of that.

The "3 kings" as we called them were changed to be force pops instead of timed pops with spawn windows, and the funny part is this actually made the items more rare- proof that you don't have to have spawn windows and long timers to have gear that not everybody can get.

[Blackpearlguy]

The "3 kings" as we called them were changed to be force pops instead of timed pops with spawn windows, and the funny part is this actually made the items more rare- proof that you don't have to have spawn windows and long timers to have gear that not everybody can get.

You know what this is also proof of? The majority of people liked HNM and it wasn't a bad way to disperse rare gear! It's one of those things you either hate it or love it.

[Alhanelem]

You know what this is also proof of? The majority of people liked HNM and it wasn't a bad way to disperse rare gear! It's one of those things you either hate it or love it.

Actually, no. The majority of people did not like this system. The majority of people did not even play this system. Technically, the majority of people who play an MMO don't even reach the max level- but I don't count that category as part of the community- just pointing out the fact that we people who like to think we're a majority on this or that actually never are.

One single segement of players out of the thousands and thousands on each server played this content. please don't make a small minority sound like a majority. Other people went to HNMs because they felt compelled to do so in order to get competitive items- not because they actually liked the content itself.

As I said in my previous post- The HNMs themselves were great. I don't hate them at all. The ridiculous mechanics involved in getting the chance to fight them is what I don't like. You don't need to have people sitting on their ass not playing the game to have rare encounters or rare item drops. You just don't. You're deluded if you think having 150 people sit in a small room waiting up to three hours for an mob to decide "Oh hey, there's 150 people in my lair, I'll show myself now so I can get my ass handed to me" and then having a maximum of 18 of those people vying for the item that probably won't drop is good game design.

Remember, just because we did something doesn't mean we really liked it. A small portion of HNM campers relished the thrill of competition (since there was little other way to compete directly with others in the game), and another small portion that enjoyed the ensuing drama and accusations of botting being flung around. Most of us just wanted a ridill or abjuration bad enough to put up with the bullshiat and didn't actually have fun with the content itself.

World spawn bosses (what people here call HNMs) are fine. hours of 30 minute spawn windows are not. Have the HNM, ditch the spawn windows, and just have it pop randomly over time or at set intervals. That immediately solves my main grievance. pop windows are just completely unnecessary. If you know a ToD, you should just go there when the time comes, have it pop, either claim it or don't, and get your reward or don't. There's no good reason to potentially make people wait 1-3 more hours on top of that.

[Xatsh]

Remove set spawn windows and it solves the issue with having to camp it. just make it random no more 23-24 with 30min windows. Make it where it is not campable remove the small spawn areas. Those 2 things seem to be most peoples complaints so just remove those 2 aspects.

As for hard content, that is half the battle. Garuda or even several dozen fights like that will not replace nms in the open world at all. That style of content is really good, but it is not even remotely the same.

[Kryptic]

Remove set spawn windows and it solves the issue with having to camp it. just make it random no more 23-24 with 30min windows. Make it where it is not campable remove the small spawn areas. Those 2 things seem to be most peoples complaints so just remove those 2 aspects.

As for hard content, that is half the battle. Garuda or even several dozen fights like that will not replace nms in the open world at all. That style of content is really good, but it is not even remotely the same.

Why can't we just have them all.. I'm not saying make it 21-24 they did that so the HNMs would spawn in different time zones. Have some force spawns, have some stupid 30 minute things so people don't cry and longer spawns for dedicated people.

[Jeronlmo]

Why can't we just have them all.. I'm not saying make it 21-24 they did that so the HNMs would spawn in different time zones. Have some force spawns, have some stupid 30 minute things so people don't cry and longer spawns for dedicated people.

Ok, I basically just deleted this whole post I made which ended up being alittle to angry, so here goes again.

I still feel these discussions are pointless considering the game is basically made but I/we agree, FF11 had plenty of force spawn NM's (see Sky/Sea), just like HNM's, it had everything but I do agree with you.

Most of us don't hate HNMs, we just hate the waiting game. I'd LOVE HNMs if it was all about the NM itself and the gear was rare and amazing because the fight was hard. The only reason I didn't like FFXI's HNMs is because you spent most of your time waiting. Yes, if you got creative you could ensure the time wasn't totally wasted, but for the most part, that's what people did: wait. 960 posts later and I still dont understand why people think having to not play the game for 30 minutes, check the game for 30 seconds to see if the NM pops, then go back to not playing the game and repeat that several times is good game design. Yes, I suppose it is one way to ensure that gear is rare, by making it so no sane person would be willing to not play the game they paid good money for for several hours just to for a *chance* to fight an NM that has a *chance* to drop the rare item.

I just don't see any of that as necessary to either have nice gear rewards or a competitive spirit/atomsphere.

I don't understand why the best gear in the game should only be accessible to people who play the game like it's a job and not like it's an actual game. It's absolutely unhealthy when a game requires you to play it as many hours a day as you would work a job. Why can't gear rarity come from challenge rather than waiting forever and ever for a mob to spawn?

Honestly FFXIV already did a decent job of that with the primal fights. Despite their best efforts, some people just couldn't beat garuda, or hard rivenroad. They just aren't good enough and that's okay. It's a lot better than not even having a chance because you don't have the time to waste being idle for hours and hours.

I had a lot of fun battling some of FFXI's hardest HNMs. I just didn't have fun sitting around waiting for certain ones to pop when there were a lot of other things in the game that i could have accomplished. Tiamat was one of the best ones- for a while people didn't really understand the exact pop windows/times and for a while it didn't matter, because Tiamat was a challenge when it was new and it was up all the time because it was a tough fight. Vrtra is another example of that.

HNM's did NOT require you to sit at "kings" for hours, or ever in fact to get the majority of their gear, or if you count the useful gear, any of it. There was einherjar, which is a point me and many others tried to drill into your thick skull sense before the game went down, for months. FF11 had content designed for everyone, not just for you, I know this is hard to understand that a game might have content based around a different demographic than you, but it happened.

HNM's are not designed for you, its filler content, something to do when there was no ein/dyna/limbus/sky/sea/others, it was a very small bonus chance to get gear that was very rare in ein.

I really am not sure how to handle you trying to decide what is healthy/unhealthy for other people based off of your personal available play time, most responces would likely get me kicked off of the forums. /em disgusted

Garuda/Hard Rivenroad were not difficult just like Ifrit Extreme, people just lack the ability to deal with lag (which came from server structure not the distance from the servers).

The "3 kings" as we called them were changed to be force pops instead of timed pops with spawn windows, and the funny part is this actually made the items more rare- proof that you don't have to have spawn windows and long timers to have gear that not everybody can get.

You have got to be kidding me... by the time those NM's were made force spawn wasnt the game lvl 99 and the gear 100% worthless? When i quit at lvl90 i remember the gear already being a joke, so the fact that it "became more rare" supposidly is because it was worthless. The fact that the majority of the population are running around with relics like they are Onion Swords should tell you something about FF11, the game/endgame is a joke and you should really try to avoid using it as a defence.

Now to the rest of the people in this thread- They will never get it, we tried, these fools will never understand that content that takes more than 30min's is still accessible to them, they just refuse to put in the work to do it and that all content cannot be based around a single group of people with virtually no play time and expect it to survive aslong as FF11 did. You need all of it, the casual content (see einherjar) and the hardcore content (see HNM's), both were valid ways to get the exact same gear.

I promise you I hate the direction ive taken this post, it is not the full purpose of this thread but this guy...

To end on track, yes, a very large portion of people from FF11 loved HNM's but people advocating for the same system is basically off the table, as I have explained before without gear swaps to keep gear relevant for 10yrs like in FF11 you cannot have such long respawn windows atleast mixed with low drop rates, it just cannot be done, would your HNMLS still be killing Nidhogg/faf/behe/KB/aspid every day if gear was replaced every 1-2yrs? The sheer size of HNMLS on average made a waiting list for items like E.body/D.ring very long and took years and years to clear out people.

People need to continue coming up with real ideas that sadly do not involve exactly what FF11 had for HNM's to work... personally I think the loss of gear swaps make true HNM's impossible in any real form, but feel free to try and make it work.

[Firon]

Just to note on pop windows you never had to sit through the whole 30 min window. If X mob was set to spawn @ 2:45:00. The only time you had to watch the clock was @ 3:15:00 and so on. So you only had to be at the pc for a total of 10 secs, but of course you would want to be there 3 mins ahead of time.

I just usually got my house work done in between windows or other things. I still think windows should be gone, however I think the pop conditions we had in 1.0 were fine just need a bit of tweaking.

[Jeronlmo]

Just to note on pop windows you never had to sit through the whole 30 min window. If X mob was set to spawn @ 2:45:00. The only time you had to watch the clock was @ 3:15:00 and so on. So you only had to be at the pc for a total of 10 secs, but of course you would want to be there 3 mins ahead of time.

I just usually got my house work done in between windows or other things. I still think windows should be gone, however I think the pop conditions we had in 1.0 were fine just need a bit of tweaking.

The bonus of long windows, as you said, you can get things done around the house/school work/relax, but I found nothing redeeming to 5min respawns, all this created was endless hours of time when you did not want to afk so you could out-claim the other group every 5mins until your entire group/ls had the gear.

Given compared to 30min windows your just shoving prob months of windows into a day with 5min windows so the crazy camping wont last long, but should the goal ever really be to end content as fast as possible?

[Kikosho]

The bonus of long windows, as you said, you can get things done around the house/school work/relax...

I'd rather spend those 30 minutes playing the game instead of looking for something to do and then having the grand "competition" against other lses that lasted One second.