Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Rutelor]

You're not attacking the grind, but then you attack the grind. There is no "desperation" to get to endgame (for most people), just a desire. Why don't you word your OP and topic to reflect more accurately what you want, which is "More things to do along the way to the top?"

The problem with adding a lot of lower to mid end content is that such content is already only used/enjoyed by the player for a relatively short period of time (e.g. in the course of doing it, you'll level out of it and not have a reason to go back). This means development resources are being invested in something that already won't get that much use, and as level caps get higher and more people progress past the content level, will become obsolete rather quickly.

The good news for you is that post 2.0 there will be more use of quests/activities in the level-up process.

So, according to this, the devs shouldn't focus on low-/mid-level content because it can become obsolete?
What about new players who come in periodically?
What about people that want to level a 2nd and 3rd job?
What about the so glorified end-game content that gets obsolete?
Once you have all weapons/ gear of a certain kind?

Oh, and why not just shut down the servers now. I mean, sooner or later this game will be dead anyway, we just don't know when! lol

That logic, at least for me, is fundamentally flawed.

Just to add to Payadopa's list: What about making the leveling process less speedy, so that people actually get to linger at mid-game long enough for them to enjoy a complex mid-game experience, to say nothing of making it worthwhile for the devs to work on said content? If the game grants some semblance of satisfaction and thrills at mid-level, people will have less reason to sacrifice their first-born to get to the finish line.

A corollary to the conclusions of your reasoning leads directly to actually allowing people to create their characters already at level 50. Heck, we're all going to get there, anyway!

And, while you are at it, have all characters already be equipped with Artifact Armor, and Relic Weapons... That will save the devs tons of their valuable time which, instead, they could invest in... hey wait! They won't have much to work on then, will they?



If you make the leveling process perfunctory, then you make the "end-level" into the beginning stage of the game. That simple.

R

[Rutelor]

hey OP.

2.0

Are you sure of that?

If you are, I envy you. As for me, I am not sure. I've read the "Version 2.0 Documents" several times, and I still haven't come across a description of what I mentioned in my OP in them.

I wish it were so, but I'm not sure that's what we'll get. If I were to assert it as a matter of fact, to myself or others, like you do, I would call that wishful thinking. But that's just me.

R

[Grimwald]

I think there should be more content for lower levels, or at least content that doesn't require having certain jobs at 50. For instance, casinos (like the possible golden saucer style place in 2.0) and a few more lower level dungeons would be a good start.

[Rutelor]

What's the point of a "grind to cap" anyway except to waste everyone's time?

Unless they have a purpose to the journey, there's really little point in the exercise if all good content is reserved for endgame players. Making 200 badly designed quests to pad out the levels is no good reason, unless those quests are actually fun and worth doing.

Quest-grind, EXP-grind, it's all just the same thing at the end of the day. Grind!

They might as well just do an EXP grind and spare themselves the effort of making hundreds of quests everyone will skim through anyway.

I agree with you, Bobbygunz.

R

[XxOstiaxX]

Have you seriously not been following the game since Yoshi-P has taken over? He has done tons of things with the current crappy game engine that are successful. Of course nothing mind blowing yet but that is because it would be a total waste to do so, he is putting that stuff into 2.0, the screen shots alone with all the things coming with 2.0 is mind blowing in itself but since you need to see to believe then just wait for 2.0 beta it is just around the corner.

Though I guess arguing the point is fruitless because you are going to refuse any point anyone else makes til you see it for yourself.

I have been playing the game since beta to date..... So yes i have been following the game, i was not impressed with the waste of resources on "Seasonal events" that added little to no lore, or the spamfest that beastman camps are, really there is little to no strategy to them other than "Zerg everything till it dies", wish was ok back then since the game needed content in any shape or form, but is been 2 full years, the excuse of 2.0 is irrelevant since they can add content at cap level, but not in mid or lower level ? really ? yet they do a welcome back campaign.... smart move there yoshi.

Also the party search function, that was something i was really exited about, until i saw it and then i was like ..... wow really ? this is nothing like any LFG tool in any MMO, it is so.... backward and better yet utterly useless..... yeah if something as important as that is delivered in such conditions what excuse is there ? None at all really.

Oh and i never said i have no faith in him, just not blind faith as some people have, wish is ok as long as like religion, they don't try to shove it down my throat, do i have my doubts ? Yes, are they well founded ? In my opinion they are, not to you ? Cool, but there is really no reason for attacks as childish as "Well if you dont like it leave" lol

[Gentaro]

We will. They need enough quests to make leveling through it viable, so...

How would such a system work if you have 7 Classes to level, but only one set of quest that probably won't last for 350 level ^^

[Shurrikhan]

Why settle for either one? Why not land both?

You may excuse me for a bit of naievty here, but I'm not speaking my view, I'm speaking Yoshida's. He's set out to make "the best mmo" that means both nailing down the content, AND appealing to the wide aduiance. Can he pull it off? I don't bleive so, but if he makes great strides in the attempt, and the game is better for it, then I am not going to push against that approach.

World of Warcraft hit its success coming after FFXI, which came out at the trailing edge of the Everquest era of MMOs. However, if market is any indication, we're now at the trailing edge of WoW's MMO era. We have the advantage to look at other MMOs, see what was done right, what was done wrong, and what hasn't been done - and that's a great place to be when you're completely remaking a game that already has a small established fan base.

Yoshida's policy is pretty clear here - he's not setteling for less. He, however foolish the idea may be cost wise, is fully intending on keeping his entire crew after redevelopment to continually crank out new content and systems after 2.0 launch. The content updates we've been given these past six months have been handed to us by a mere fraction of the full team. And the remaining people on the team has been working tirelessly on a gaming engine that is better both for players and for them to continue development with.

If Yoshi is intending on keeping that crew even after redevelopment, I don't think cost efficiency is in his venue here.

If I was taking a guess, he wants to create a wide berth of systems to cover as many playstyles as he can get, and then develop upon them in a way that keeps the players interested, as well as encouraging people to experiment around with the differing systems of the game.

We'll see how it pans out. I'm skeptical of his ability to maintain the momentum he has. But my faith in the man's vision? Rock solid. He's downright ambitious and idealistic to boot - my kind of guy. He well knows that this game can be his golden ticket to video game fame, or the shackles that will always make him a laughing stock of the industry. With that kind of pressure, you don't sleep much, and you must definitely do not pull your punches.

He might get knocked around by his superiors and have some of his people taken away form him, which will slow down his progress, but it won't stop him. I've no doubt that Yoshi-P will not stop until he's made a game that we are continually delighted and amazed over, or someone pulls the plug on him while he's trying.

I hope I can soon share your confidence in the man. I almost do, but still can't quite reach that point. And in part of it is because of that sense of pragmatics in looking to old MMOs while pushing for that "best by both means". It doesn't take that much hindsight to see what worked and why from old MMOs, but every time you use that as your base of knowledge, you've already tied yourself down. The only insight that can be taken from the view of past games is of the playerbase, and even then it's like looking at products of numerous unknown factors rather than usefully measurable composition. I honest believe that making games is an art first, a skill second. And that opinion is not intuition alone.

Synergy of the elements of a game require a unique genius to begin with, something further out there -- world-stories, pervading feels, excellent plot-lines. It's hard to guess whether games any of the philosophic motifs parsed through Final Fantasy 7 through 9 (10 I consider to be relatively easy to guess and is therefore unlisted) were intended from the start, but if they weren't the characters, world, and plot pulled those things in like the perfect blanket. That's playing to a game's strength. Not that of a rival company, not prior games -- to each it's own.

Starting from the beginning by enlisting known means that exist only because they were how another game chose to use them to present their own world, story, feels, is like trying to make a new sport out of a (proven-designed) lacrosse stick, baseball bat, and a basket ball. MMORPG conventions as specific as 'quests' (as a pick-up, oppertunity granted, cash, reward mechanic) only exist because of limits in willnessness to code newly and design original, more fitting ideas. MMORPG goals like the feel of adventure, progression, and camaraderie are the only things that can really carry through time and time again. But they're ends, not means. A game should take it's own perspective on what those goals can and should mean to the game, and the means should be that alone.

The more you see originally, the more obvious the connections become to further additions, and the whole picture with every addition made. Playing instead a survivalist battle of testing pieces you never designed, albeit in your own forging, in order to hole up and refinish a sinking ship does not change that the hull is flawed and will sink again.

If he hasn't already, Yoshi needs to take a step back. If he wants to aim for perfection, he can't do it by repairing and slapping on new pieces. He has the opportunity of 2.0, and he should take it to see what he's really aiming for, in a complete view, and then pursue it.

Edit: I do find "cranking" out new content to be a near perfect example of playing to a survivalist method. Even while what 'content' provides may be intriguing and is certainly a worthwhile investment, it's no saving grace. WoW has only ever escalated its costs in playing to this strategy, and though it's made its success in bulk, its success has always been a comparative one. It systems are inviting and with have little annoyance, but neither are they at all remarkable. If this is the edge of a new era of MMOs, a step needs to be taken forward instead, to claim a remarkable spot in the era.

[Tigercub]

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

[Pofo]

you really come late with this thread..


Yoshida about 2.0. :

"you will get the key to level up your character, so completing content is a key to leveling up in 2.0 version.

Completing the quests, getting rewards, huge experience points, or completing a dungeon and getting experience points, that's going to be the key thing to level up your character, not like at the moment where you have to do monster camping or farming, that's not going to work in 2.0."


one standard quest from the screens:

"Hyrstmill wasnt built within a day - deliever whaterwheel parts to hyrstmill"

(on the righten side)

A bit off topic but has anyone else realized in that screenshot is a 46 DRG using Gae Bolg (Lv50)?

[Andrien]

A bit off topic but has anyone else realized in that screenshot is a 46 DRG using Gae Bolg (Lv50)?

they can do anything in the test server