Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Hyrist]

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I'd like to first mention that I love relying to your post. I read them and they're very thoughtful and constructive to boost. That said, you my friend are a rare gem in which your specific tone is not reflected in others in your 'camp' so to speak. Many would chose to defend their arguments by defacing another credibility somehow, yet you keep your composure and provide a thoughtful and respectful reply.

I'm smiling right now in delight because of it. Thank you.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

This said, I do spectulate that we are too late, at this point, for high thought level discussion as to the progression systems in 2.0. At least as far in the manners of general approaches and concepts.

At this point in development, given our indicated launch date coming at the beginning of 2013, the team should be beyond the conception stage and into optimization. So the ideal is in place and we need to be more aware of the formulae by which SE is running experience and progression by, before we can ask for modifications. Otherwise, we're asking them to rethink the entire formula a third time.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrist, I very much agree with.

Thank you.

It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R

Tis a noble adjective with one major problem. We cannot assume that every individual on these boards are adults, or are able to be respectful for whatever reason. That said, finding those who do entertain a respectful discourse is part of the pleasures in any community.

More on the subject of the word "Faster". I will have to admit, for the sake of clarity, that I too became somewhat starteled that Yoshida chose such wording for the leveling process.

However beyond the fear I sought reason. Yoshida is withholding information about 2.0 and we know as much, but he also likes to drop clues. The numbers in our serveys were pretty clear that the majority of the players were fairly content with the leveling pace. So in order to make the logical leap from 'It's ok where we are.' to 'we probably should make it faster' likely lies within that black box of information we do not have.

If I am permitted to speculate, I believe it means we're having 'more' added. Be that a higher level cap or simply more classes to level. To keep the same time amount to reach similar goals, that means the general pacing would have to increase. This may be a misinterpretation of the data given by the players, mind you, but it would make sense if that was the conclusion made.

If this is the case, then we do have time to tell them to dial it back some. We'll know in the Beta for certain.

Another approach to the idea term of 'faster' may be use time. For example, on average, through the course to fifty, it takes me about an hour per level. I beleive that is an ideal course, as getting level 50 would take about fifty hours of playtime. At ten hours a week, that would mean five weeks.

Of course time would be distracted doing quests, raid runs with friends, and what have you.

If the process of doing raids, questing, etc, also leveled me, then I'm no longer separation my time just for leveling, and by proxy, leveling is faster. This would be closer to the ideal as now players are getting rewarded for adventuring and being in a part of the rich content during levels that we were asking for, but we would have to see the matter first hand before we could speculate that the amount of experience gathered this way is too much, or if the quests and objectives seem deep enough to merit its rewards.

Overall I caution against panic in a situation that we know so little, but rather compose our thoughts to the point where we have our ideals refined, yet flexible enough to get specific with the Developers once we have the Beta in our hands, both positively and constructively.

I am keeping my ideals open enough for me to be able to say "Wow, I'm fifty already?" And feel good about it, rather than disappointed. That's probably Yoshida's end goal: to have you so wrapped up in enjoying the things you do, that you don't notice that you're grinding while doing it. It's up to us to tweak it so that response works for the widest number of people - and I caution against presuming one's self in the role of being a majority. To achieve that, we have to assume a juxtaposition - (and I don't mean everyone's favorite Podcast Tarutaru. )

[Gukie]

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[Reyko]

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

[Hyrist]

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

You're arguing on a matter of personal preference, and assuming your stance is a majority.

Final Fantasy is a subjective experience to begin with. In fact, a defining factor of Final Fantasy is that it's numerals differ from one another with each iteration. A person who likes six, might not like seven, might like eight, might think two was dumb, etc. But the point of the matter is, no system was a duplication of the other.

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others and they fail to acknowledge the reasons why that would be considered a bad mechanic by their intellectual opponents - even though I've listed the primary reason as plain as I possibly could.

There are other means of progression the Developers could instill in this game that does not enforce a sense of separation in the base.

There are other means of creating a sense of journey and development without attaching it to some arbitrary number system.

[Elexia]

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing.

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

[Velhart]

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

I never understand people's logic on "WoW clone", its setup became a standard for the genre itself. Would you say that other RPG's are clones of Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest because they use a similar interface? "Ohh this game is a turned based battle system? Its obviously a FF clone.". Chrono Trigger use the same ATB gauge system as FFIV and still considered one of the greatest RPG's of all time. Sure created by the same company, but it's RPG concepts are not completely original, interface wise. What truly makes a game of that genre good is creating your own unique twist to it. Bring people in with the sense of familiarity, and then "BAM!", give them something original feeling.

Chrono Trigger used basic RPG concepts and interface, what made it unique was it's Dual/Triple Tech system and it's time travel method on conveying a story, not to mention multiple endings and new game+. I believe FFXIV 2.0 is the same way. MMO players will come in with that sense of familiarity, then SE will slap something at them that makes the game unique compared to other MMO's. Can compare it to FPS's also, they all use the same/similar interface, but its what they bring in the game's concepts that makes it unique. Bioshock was able to use basic FPS UI concepts, and at the same time, made a very original feeling game.

FFXI purist do need to realize, while it was a great game at it's time, a lot of it's concepts are outdated and will never bring in it's large audience. SE aims at getting the big audience, not just a niche audience like FFXI. The common MMO player does not want to grind on the same monster all day, they want a fun way of progressing their character. The best solution I see to this is questing.

[Hyrist]

The same reason you "WoW Romanticists" are forcing your ideals on everyone? If "FFXI romanticists" aren't allowed to force ideals (even though they aren't) why can the other side force ideals?

It's fine to dislike FFXI, but be real here.

I am being real. Compromise is the solution here, one you're refuting wholesale.

Secondary, I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

You tote around that sign, but I don't believe you follow its lesson.

It is time to stop with the accusatory tones and work towards solutions that appeal to a wide base, not a niche audience. That means putting down the pitchforks and torches saying that the world will burn if leveling is faster than what you want it to be, and start working on other ways that would make content attractive, especially throughout the level span.

Personally, rather than sit and try to stretch out the content by enforcing areas with level caps. I'd rather see them simply add more depth and replay-ability to content and have it be widely accessible.

There are many paths to go about this at variable level speeds. But FFXI is a very, very poor example of good leveling speed. They continually, constantly tried to improve the system and the playerbase was never satisfied with it until after the fact, on the outside looking in. They tend to forget the six hours shouting for a party outside Quifim, or the entire day's worth of XP lost due to a train at Selbina entrance. They overlook the Princess RDMs and BRDs, and the fact that WHM's got pretty much forced out of XP/Merit parties for the duration of an entire expansion.

There are so many incredible flaws in making a stretched out leveling system that do not need to be in this game, and FFXI embodied many of them.

That is not to say that FFXIV's leveling speed needs to be lightening quick. But keep in mind this is a multiple-job system so if it's going to be similar to other MMOs on the market, the leveling speed does have to be a tad faster than those, if Yoshi is to encourage players to play multiple classes per character.

Idealy, the quest and storyline content should support this, so that the player does not feel either rushed nor pushed down. That's a delicate balance to create - one that we will NOT be able to properly measure sitting here on the forums complaining at each other. Especially given everyone's differing playstyles.

Now I've already listed several alternatives, from an optional XP trade for a differing currency, to quested skills, to level-capped dungeons. (And to add an alternative to that, instead of level capping, how about damage capping? So that those of higher level can still use their full skillset, but the effectiveness of those skills is reduced to compensate for the difference.)

I'd like it if you'd attempt to meet me halfway here and come of with a few ideas that would satisfy more than your own ideal.

[Rutelor]

I am not a WoW Player, nor do I appeal to it. However, even if FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable game, those profits dwarfed to inconsequential size by the success of WoW, which you seem to be venomously disapproving of.

If we are to be truely netural here, you need to first acknolege that WoW beats FFXI by an approximate factor of twenty four in terms of peak subscriptions. That is not something you ignore because you have a preference to a personal memory. That is when you sit up straight and look at seriously at the differences.

Even ignoring WoW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, Tera: Their initial subscriptions alone doubled our highest number in FFXI at its peak. Guild Wars 2 is poised to do the same. Yet you scoff at these titles. Even as many of them drop large numbers of subscriptions, they're still pulling higher numbers than FFXI is currently.

One point most modern audiences have trouble navigating through is how the loud voice of the gigantic financial and demographic success of popular products seems to obliterate the voice of less successful options; the less numerous popularity and inferior financial earnings of more demanding and perhaps less terse material always lose when people go out of their way to determine what's best. It's an argument that most of the time does not include considerations of real quality in its scope.

This is one of the inherent issues with markets, and democracy, as regulating structures: Despite their enormous virtues, and the fact that, no doubt, we lack better options, they do tend to push the notion that popularity equals quality. And who can argue against the mighty push of a big bank account?

The notion that the taste or the preferences of the lesser numbers are equal to elitism, and are therefore perverse, is so profoundly ingrained in our culture--because it's so horrendously exploited and abused, both politically and commercially--that it's difficult even to argue against its blatant incorrectness and demagogical bias.

Mozart has become inferior to Michael Jackson, McDonald's and Subway superior to nutritive home cooking or fine dining, Coca-Cola better than water or wine, Rothko and Pollock lesser than Rockwell, Lucas inherently better than Antonioni or Bergman, and stretching the issue, FFXI markedly inferior to World of Warcraft or Rift, which easily "beat" it by high number factors.

The full philosophical argument against this view is perhaps not within the scope of a forum like this one, but the questioning of it definitely fits here.

Let's not yield so easily to the tyranny of the majority, and the rule of the minimum common denominator, which is inherent complexity-phobic and unaware of quality. And let's remember that the truly great democracies of the world institutionalize opposition to the majority rule, and subject said rule to checks and balances.

R

[Jynx]

So why are FFXI romanticists insistent in forcing such a thing? The answer is personal preference. My issue against them is - they're not looking for alternatives. They want leveling slow to the point of exhaustion to others

Sweeping generalizations FTW!

Same could be said of people who don't want to look at a longer leveling curve as a alternative they are so bent on their own opinion! Dear GOD WHAT HAVE WE DONE!

As for your "Arbitrary" number system I'd love to hear how it's arbitrary, I assume you would be all for the removal of levels from the game entirely if this is the point. A point many people have brought up due to the fact leveling itself is pretty much a worthless objective in the game.

[Durian]

You had me at

Fill the world with one thousand Shposhae

:~