Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Shurrikhan]

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant.

Someone finally said the extreme yet reasonable. ...I'd love to remove levels as long as there are different ways to progress the character (gear/a reformed materia system/making one's own abilities/world-story/plots/NPC relationships/a vast number of other things that have no definitive place in 'levels' except to milestone that system, which is otherwise unneeded).

I don't see why every game has to try to poorly sum up all manners of progression in power (at least until endgame) into these clunky tiers.

That said, any progression of other sorts, when increasing stats more than complexity (and therefore skill-gap), will run into the same problem, even if less obviously or severely. But at the same time, the solution (a higher "level" being a higher grade of player who's able to take more advantage of his skill, not by stats but by increased skill-gap or tools of that sort) already sends development in the direction of better character development.

**Though it's not a major part of what I was saying earlier, let me address the idea of highest "levels" (combat power, really; though highest tiers can be found in plenty of other categories...) only being for elite players, a bit of a slippery slope off what I said above.

I honestly don't see a problem with this. If they became the elite of the game, they did so by playing elite-ly. That playstyle is not going to be appealing to others, or they'd already be playing that way, just how they enjoy it. Meanwhile those who prefer doing things besides pouring their efforts and skill into combat, can do that. Or both.

[Tigercub]

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

[Rutelor]

I wish I could 'Like' the OP one bajillion times.
I literally have stopped playing several times because I thought leveling in 2.0 might be more fun, and I should save the experience for when it comes out. When I found out they were just going to speed it up and make it an endgame fest, seriously /disappointed.

Exactly my point.

Slow the leveling process, give us plenty of low-level and mid-level content.

As I've clarified above, I wasn't writing against grinding as a mechanism to level. As a matter of fact, I like leveling through grinding. What I was trying to position myself against was the idea of a game that seems to be about to become a rat race to the end. I think accelerating the grind--and making the game end-game heavy--only stultifies it, and will render it boring and perfunctory.

Give us a path, not only a destination.

R

[Vingtdeux]

I agree with the majority.

I really wish getting to 50 was slower, even if there's not enough content and a little grinding is required.

The part I enjoy the most in RPG's is to develop a character. I'm failry casual and I had all DoW/DoM at 50 in May 2011, which isn't normal.

I even have nostalgia of failing leves since that actually made my character grow. I don't have any nostalgia for spamming Ifrit for months though.

[Rutelor]

Another aspect that I somehow lament, is the automatic granting of skills and spells, just on reaching some level. Somehow, the whole thing felt more organic when you had to quest, and toil, for your new abilities, once you reached the level.

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

R

[Shurrikhan]

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

It will add fun, sure, but the "incentive" by any other view already exist. There's no xp-splitting here. Do leves alone or do them with 6 other people -- same xp, at near player-multiple the speed. With rested xp, I've done 40-42 in around 18 minutes. Just have 8 leves for the area, and the highest difficulty you can get xp out of.

I guess I'm speaking a bit satirically though. I agree that fun should be the prime incentive in such choices - not there being something brokenly easy way to gain xp or the like. I just wish it was more often that people would look for their incentives in how actually enjoyable the process is.

<--I usually prefer to level solo. I'll often enjoy leveling with friends, but the hecticness and lack of ingenuity in party-play (especially given how well my current main, a Pugilist, can solo) burns me out quickly. When things die so fast, I feel like I'm fighting just to be useful, even if we're fighting enemies 4 to 6 levels above our own.

[Hyrist]

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

[Rutelor]

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

[Hyrist]

It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

[Rutelor]

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I am not "demanding" any changes to content I haven't tried. I am giving my (admittedly strong) opinion on issues that I care about in game-play, and against which tendency seems to go of late, not only in this game, but in the industry at large.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I'm also in a state of suspense. It's only I don't believe for a second silence will contribute positively in the areas that still can be changed. And later could be too late. I'm writing, yes, but I don't believe I'm doing so heavy-handedly, nor too brashly.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

The rest of this thoughtful post, Hyrst, I very much agree with. It's just that word "Faster" that scares me, and I think it's best if I, by saying so, I contribute a bit to prick the community to express their thoughts on the issue and, in general, to illuminate us all. Your replies, are part of this, and for that I, personally, I'm thankful.

This game's development company has taken the very unusual path of rebuilding it with a very determined and proactive community nested in its inside. It cannot now go back and ignore it's bidding. This community's opinion, for good or bad, will imprint the game; I want it to be for good, and I just happen to think that requires respectful, thoughtful and intelligent expression. People like you (and--it's to be hoped--I). I'm not trying to win an argument, or to have my opinion be the driving guideline, but rather to help (sometimes clumsily, I'll admit) steer the community into expressing civilly and articulately what its wants might be.

R