Fresh Start will ruin 2.0

[Pandastirfry]

what i don't understand is why you are asking economic questions when you don't understand economics....

(SNIPPED HORRIBLE AND WRONG ECONOMIC NONSENSE)

Maybe if you bothered to learn economics before you tried to pretend that you understand it you would better understand whats going on in this topic....

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

[Pandastirfry]

This...
Plus this thread has absolutely nothing to do with new people making less than old people. It has to do with the amount of money in circulation on different servers and how that could effect SEs decision making

For example: say SE implemented a repeatable dynamis. They had to decide on what to charge for an hourglass. "look at all the players with capped gil, lets charge 5mil a pop" they might say. So on my server, 5mil a pop is nothing. But on a new server people might need to work for weeks or months to get 5mil. Hence people on the new server cry about how its unfair, and SE drops the price to 500k. But now people on the old server can do like 1000s of dynamis runs. People on the new server cry that people on the old server have 10 times more dynamis gear then them. SE abandons gil and makes everything a primal fight.

Thats just one -possible- example.

Yes, they can work around it if:

They treat different servers differently (resulting in cross-server rage at unfair treatment)
But then, they can't let anyone ever transfer to that server because if 10 people brought capped gil they would destroy the servers economy

They never use gil as anything more than trading currency
In this case they might as well just get rid of npcs that sell stuff. Make airships and stuff like that free. And never introduce elite dynamis-level gear that have purchasable items (as people with 999,999,999 will grab them all up like hotcakes and have a dynamis weapon a month after its released, again pissing ppl off on the new servers who will never see one for years)

And there are a lot of other very good ways they could work around it mentioned here.

they will never base the cost of a NPC bought Item on available gil stores...how many times do you have to be told this.


Let's use the airship tickets as an example... at lvl 50 an airship ticket costs 5k gil, this is because they worked out the formula based on an average lvl 50's EARNING POTENTIAL, not the expected amount they have in their savings, one lvl 40 leve should be enough for your average lvl 50 to make that 5k in roughly 5 minutes. This is simple math they have to use..."if we can expect that the lvl range targeted with this content can make this much money in this amount of time with a reasonable lvl of effort, then this is the price point we will use"... IT would be the height of idiocy to use the rubric of "50 people on these six random servers have 999,999,999 gil so the price for this item will be....50mil gil". No economy uses that pricing structure for obvious reasons.

it is the same reason that goods and services are not priced based on the population available money, but on the market demand and average cost of the good to produce and sell...

[Zenaku]

Gil isn't completely useless, but we have so many alternatives in terms of gears that people can get away fine without gil, people with gil will still be able to improve their character with multiple melds, but people that go all the way to multi melds their character are in minority, hence the low demands.

It's difference in FFXI where alot of best gears in slot was obtained from AH because most of endgame gear wasn't available to 90% of the playerbase (Ground HNMs) and people needed something or more like expected to wear something before they obtain the other gears (Dynamis/Limbus) because AF is crap in FFXI.

You don't even need gil for that lol you can easy make cheap gear and SB and then make good gear and do multiple melds that what i been doing for over 1 week now and i can farm all the items in a matter of a few hours and make enough to try 20-30 times and if i don't get x3 melds i'm sure i have a few x2 that i can sell and make profit and keep the best one then farm again.

Money is pretty much useless for non lazy players for people who are lazy then they going to waste the most gil but everything in the game is super easy to get.

[Wildz]

So...you think because a level 50 player can make 10 mil faster than a level 10 player...something is broken?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

One word - Noob.

[waldo]

Stopped here because you forgot to mention:

1. Gil was in surplus at the start of service, you could literally make millions on guildleves in a relatively short time compared to now, even spamming 99 leves you won't hit a million+ gil in as short of a period, simply because the way rewards work when you're over leveled and the fact low level leves don't produce that much gil as is.

2. Vendor prices were much much higher on certain items early on as well, thus people made twice as much gil selling to vendors then compared to now.

So while yes "working more/longer means you have more gil", you have to take into consideration that isn't why a lot of people actually had a lot of gil compared to someone new playing (in present time), especially if you're comparing to someone who started in 2010 when the game was horribly broken and horribly unoptimized in even its singular content system.

Nowadays you don't get near as much gil from leves like you used to, not even faction leves. Evaluations can come close (specially for achievement) however it's no where near as lucrative as 2010 just doing regular 8 leves every 36-48 hours ontop of vendoring everything you get for 1-5k a pop.

I'll just have to disagree, sure it's unfair to a new server, but the price of oil is a price of oil. You could play with drop rates in your dynamis to make up for the difference in Gil sink to make it more 'fair' to the new server, but in reality your just screwing us older guys.

You know Johnson and johnsons stock rose over 4000% from the 70's to 1999, and is up like 17% since then, is that unfair to the generation that came investing time and money into the stock post 2000?

Some things are not fair, sorry

[Majidah]

Put another way:
Old server > average gil is 40mil per person

wait. what the hell?
I play since beta and I only have one mil left after gearing my blm.

[Noir]

wait. what the hell?
I play since beta and I only have one mil left after gearing my blm.

Lol, I love how these ppl pull those nbers from their asses.

Average is 40 mil.. Lol where are my 35mil?

[Azurymber]

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

Rather than say "zomG your economics is soooo wrongggg" why don't you show whats wrong about it?
I gave the definition of GDP and linked to a wikipedia article.... I'm sure that's all wrong though. Wikipedia is just a conspiracy to trick the average person into believing things that "they" want you to think, right? The Illuminati are really the ones controlling gil levels!

And I don't think you are grasping the concept of how an economy with billions of gil circulating is different from one with no gil.

Let me put it this way:
There are 2 islands totally separate from each other.
Island A, and Island B
On both islands you can make 1000 gold coins a day

Now on island A, most people have 500,000 gold coins saved up.
On island B, most people have less than 10,000 gold coins saved up.

The supply of chocolate bars is equal on both islands. It takes the same amount of work and effort to produce a chocolate bar on Island A as Island B.
In any free market, Island A will have a higher chocolate bar price than Island B. Why? Because island A is experiencing inflation (note: this is assuming the monetarist view. But even under other theories the same thing would occur)

What do I mean by inflation you say? Well think logically. If in 2010, every citizen of island A on average has 100,000 gold. And then by 2012, every citizen on average has 500,000, it means that the amount of gold circulating in an economy has increased 5-fold. That means that 1 piece of gold is now worth 5 times less than it was...

So apply this to ffxiv.
On an old server having 1-million gil may be equal to 100k gil on a new server (value wise).

Confused?
Lets simplify
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average 5000 gil. So there is 500,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil you have 20,000/500,000 or 0.04% of the world's gil.

Now lets say you are on another server.
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average of 50,000 gil. so there is 5,000,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil on this server you have 0.004% of the world's gil. That means you are 10 times poorer than you would be on the "new" server with less gil.

So, by logic,
Lets say SE sets prices for things like airships, dynamis-type entrance fees, crafting materials, etc, based upon how much gil you -CAN- make.
What that means is that if an old server has 10 times more gil than a new one, it is 10 times easier for those on the old server to purchase whatever is being sold.

Put another way, if I spend 1% of my gil on a dynamis entrance fee, someone on a new server would probably have to spend 10%.

In reality, there has been so much exploitation and so many people have over 100mil, that its more like 50 to 100 times easier.

Of course if I -only- did leves, i would be in the same situation as a new player. But I can craft, farm, and gather, and then sell that. Since there is so much gil in the economy, I will always be able to sell my goods for 10 times or more than new servers. Thus I will always have 10 times or more of an advantage when purchasing anything from an npc.

And you might say "nuh uh, the servers will balance over time". But why would they? Players on new and old servers will on average generate the same amount of gil into the economy from the "system". However, on old servers there will always be those billions of gil floating around. So the old servers will always have a massive advantage over new servers when it comes to purchasing anything from an NPC.

I have mentioned many solutions, like diff prices for diff servers, gil sinks prior to new servers, etc. But the chances of SE making good decisions are low, as if they treat one server different than another, people will complain and rage.

I just provided a mathematically based economic explanation of the difference between two servers with different amounts of monetary circulation. If you don't agree, respond in an educated way. Not "ALL LYIESSSSSS"

[Chardrizard]

Stop making real life example and give us example what will happen in FFXIV. No don't even try to bring up how FFXI relic weapon works and how someone will just get it on first day because so far we don't have anything like that.

There are too much IFs and worrying over nothing and please dear god stop bringing up FFXI. What will happen in FFXI or what has happened in FFXI stays there. Give us what will happen at current FFXIV economy.

[Zenaku]

Stop making real life example and give us example what will happen in FFXIV. No don't even try to bring up how FFXI relic weapon works and how someone will just get it on first day because so far we don't have anything like that.

There are too much IFs and worrying over nothing and please dear god stop bringing up FFXI. What will happen in FFXI or what has happened in FFXI stays there. Give us what will happen at current FFXIV economy.

I give up a few page back the person just put a wall of text and sadly a wall of text of something the person trying to explain that is wrong and not matter but w/e i just hope this get lock.