Fresh Start will ruin 2.0

[Pandastirfry]

what i don't understand is why you are asking economic questions when you don't understand economics....

(SNIPPED HORRIBLE AND WRONG ECONOMIC NONSENSE)

Maybe if you bothered to learn economics before you tried to pretend that you understand it you would better understand whats going on in this topic....

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

[Azurymber]

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

Rather than say "zomG your economics is soooo wrongggg" why don't you show whats wrong about it?
I gave the definition of GDP and linked to a wikipedia article.... I'm sure that's all wrong though. Wikipedia is just a conspiracy to trick the average person into believing things that "they" want you to think, right? The Illuminati are really the ones controlling gil levels!

And I don't think you are grasping the concept of how an economy with billions of gil circulating is different from one with no gil.

Let me put it this way:
There are 2 islands totally separate from each other.
Island A, and Island B
On both islands you can make 1000 gold coins a day

Now on island A, most people have 500,000 gold coins saved up.
On island B, most people have less than 10,000 gold coins saved up.

The supply of chocolate bars is equal on both islands. It takes the same amount of work and effort to produce a chocolate bar on Island A as Island B.
In any free market, Island A will have a higher chocolate bar price than Island B. Why? Because island A is experiencing inflation (note: this is assuming the monetarist view. But even under other theories the same thing would occur)

What do I mean by inflation you say? Well think logically. If in 2010, every citizen of island A on average has 100,000 gold. And then by 2012, every citizen on average has 500,000, it means that the amount of gold circulating in an economy has increased 5-fold. That means that 1 piece of gold is now worth 5 times less than it was...

So apply this to ffxiv.
On an old server having 1-million gil may be equal to 100k gil on a new server (value wise).

Confused?
Lets simplify
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average 5000 gil. So there is 500,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil you have 20,000/500,000 or 0.04% of the world's gil.

Now lets say you are on another server.
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average of 50,000 gil. so there is 5,000,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil on this server you have 0.004% of the world's gil. That means you are 10 times poorer than you would be on the "new" server with less gil.

So, by logic,
Lets say SE sets prices for things like airships, dynamis-type entrance fees, crafting materials, etc, based upon how much gil you -CAN- make.
What that means is that if an old server has 10 times more gil than a new one, it is 10 times easier for those on the old server to purchase whatever is being sold.

Put another way, if I spend 1% of my gil on a dynamis entrance fee, someone on a new server would probably have to spend 10%.

In reality, there has been so much exploitation and so many people have over 100mil, that its more like 50 to 100 times easier.

Of course if I -only- did leves, i would be in the same situation as a new player. But I can craft, farm, and gather, and then sell that. Since there is so much gil in the economy, I will always be able to sell my goods for 10 times or more than new servers. Thus I will always have 10 times or more of an advantage when purchasing anything from an npc.

And you might say "nuh uh, the servers will balance over time". But why would they? Players on new and old servers will on average generate the same amount of gil into the economy from the "system". However, on old servers there will always be those billions of gil floating around. So the old servers will always have a massive advantage over new servers when it comes to purchasing anything from an NPC.

I have mentioned many solutions, like diff prices for diff servers, gil sinks prior to new servers, etc. But the chances of SE making good decisions are low, as if they treat one server different than another, people will complain and rage.

I just provided a mathematically based economic explanation of the difference between two servers with different amounts of monetary circulation. If you don't agree, respond in an educated way. Not "ALL LYIESSSSSS"

[Pandastirfry]

Rather than say "zomG your economics is soooo wrongggg" why don't you show whats wrong about it?
I gave the definition of GDP and linked to a wikipedia article.... I'm sure that's all wrong though. Wikipedia is just a conspiracy to trick the average person into believing things that "they" want you to think, right? The Illuminati are really the ones controlling gil levels!

And I don't think you are grasping the concept of how an economy with billions of gil circulating is different from one with no gil.

Let me put it this way:
There are 2 islands totally separate from each other.
Island A, and Island B
On both islands you can make 1000 gold coins a day

Now on island A, most people have 500,000 gold coins saved up.
On island B, most people have less than 10,000 gold coins saved up.

The supply of chocolate bars is equal on both islands. It takes the same amount of work and effort to produce a chocolate bar on Island A as Island B.
In any free market, Island A will have a higher chocolate bar price than Island B. Why? Because island A is experiencing inflation (note: this is assuming the monetarist view. But even under other theories the same thing would occur)

What do I mean by inflation you say? Well think logically. If in 2010, every citizen of island A on average has 100,000 gold. And then by 2012, every citizen on average has 500,000, it means that the amount of gold circulating in an economy has increased 5-fold. That means that 1 piece of gold is now worth 5 times less than it was...

So apply this to ffxiv.
On an old server having 1-million gil may be equal to 100k gil on a new server (value wise).

Confused?
Lets simplify
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average 5000 gil. So there is 500,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil you have 20,000/500,000 or 0.04% of the world's gil.

Now lets say you are on another server.
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average of 50,000 gil. so there is 5,000,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil on this server you have 0.004% of the world's gil. That means you are 10 times poorer than you would be on the "new" server with less gil.

So, by logic,
Lets say SE sets prices for things like airships, dynamis-type entrance fees, crafting materials, etc, based upon how much gil you -CAN- make.
What that means is that if an old server has 10 times more gil than a new one, it is 10 times easier for those on the old server to purchase whatever is being sold.

Put another way, if I spend 1% of my gil on a dynamis entrance fee, someone on a new server would probably have to spend 10%.

In reality, there has been so much exploitation and so many people have over 100mil, that its more like 50 to 100 times easier.

Of course if I -only- did leves, i would be in the same situation as a new player. But I can craft, farm, and gather, and then sell that. Since there is so much gil in the economy, I will always be able to sell my goods for 10 times or more than new servers. Thus I will always have 10 times or more of an advantage when purchasing anything from an npc.

And you might say "nuh uh, the servers will balance over time". But why would they? Players on new and old servers will on average generate the same amount of gil into the economy from the "system". However, on old servers there will always be those billions of gil floating around. So the old servers will always have a massive advantage over new servers when it comes to purchasing anything from an NPC.

I have mentioned many solutions, like diff prices for diff servers, gil sinks prior to new servers, etc. But the chances of SE making good decisions are low, as if they treat one server different than another, people will complain and rage.

I just provided a mathematically based economic explanation of the difference between two servers with different amounts of monetary circulation. If you don't agree, respond in an educated way. Not "ALL LYIESSSSSS"

Again you are comparing incomparable things.

let's take you islands example: To islands that are completely isolated from each other and have no trade... each have the same supply of chocolate bars and the same demand for them... however apparently the mineral wealth of each island is disporportiante, Island A has more mineral wealth in the form of gold than that of Island B, you of course are presupposing that on Island A due to the mineral's relative abundance that it will have the exact same starting value as Island B where gold is relativley scarce, because as we all know what is considered rare by one culture and used as Currency, is considered rare and used by a Culture that has it in abundance (EX: Spain and Mezzo America in). Secopnd you have yep to show any meaningful way in which the economy of Island B will effect the closed system of Island A and vice versa, on top of this you are basing all of your numbers and subsequent terrible guesses that have never panned out on a static currency/goods supply. and this is not an example of inflation. Inflation would be if the was a sudden shortfall of cash or chocolate on either island and demand stayed constant resulting in a increase in the price of chocolate, or a sudden influx of either cash or chocolate driving the value of on or the other down... What you have described is equilibrium pricing in seperated markets, like for instance the fact that in North Carolina, Gas is $3,45 9/10 per gallon, but in California it is as high as $5.00 9/10 per gallon yet the cost of a barrel of crude oil is the same across all markets.

HOW EXACTLY WITH CHARTS AND GRAPHS! do closed economies with the exact same earning potential, and moneytary inputs and outputs and no contact between each other some how magically affect each other and are somehow cpmpletely immune to their own market forces and also WHY would SE adopt the dumbest pricing structure for NPC items ever devised by man. You have so far completely failed to show why SE would want to use dome or the worst buisness sense or why it would be neccessary to balance all server economies at all.

[Azurymber]

Again you are comparing incomparable things. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/n...reply&p=710277

let's take you islands example: To islands that are completely isolated from each other and have no trade... each have the same supply of chocolate bars and the same demand for them... however apparently the mineral wealth of each island is disporportiante, Island A has more mineral wealth in the form of gold than that of Island B, you of course are presupposing that on Island A due to the mineral's relative abundance that it will have the exact same starting value as Island B where gold is relativley scarce, because as we all know what is considered rare by one culture and used as Currency, is considered rare and used by a Culture that has it in abundance (EX: Spain and Mezzo America in). Secopnd you have yep to show any meaningful way in which the economy of Island B will effect the closed system of Island A and vice versa, on top of this you are basing all of your numbers and subsequent terrible guesses that have never panned out on a static currency/goods supply. and this is not an example of inflation. Inflation would be if the was a sudden shortfall of cash or chocolate on either island and demand stayed constant resulting in a increase in the price of chocolate, or a sudden influx of either cash or chocolate driving the value of on or the other down... What you have described is equilibrium pricing in seperated markets, like for instance the fact that in North Carolina, Gas is $3,45 9/10 per gallon, but in California it is as high as $5.00 9/10 per gallon yet the cost of a barrel of crude oil is the same across all markets.

HOW EXACTLY WITH CHARTS AND GRAPHS! do closed economies with the exact same earning potential, and moneytary inputs and outputs and no contact between each other some how magically affect each other and are somehow cpmpletely immune to their own market forces and also WHY would SE adopt the dumbest pricing structure for NPC items ever devised by man. You have so far completely failed to show why SE would want to use dome or the worst buisness sense or why it would be neccessary to balance all server economies at all.

close economies don't effect each other. But if you have 10 closed servers, all with a different economy, and SE tries to fix them -ALL- because 4 are broken. It will fix the 4 and hurt the other 6. Thats the point. If SE treats each server different there isn't a problem. But if they try to treat an inflated economy the same as a balanced economy, it will have serious repercussions.

Image if you tried applying the current monetary policy of austerity in Greece to the U.S. The U.S's economy would collapse within a few days.

And market forces only work if you have a relative equal amount of currency in all markets.
In other games they usually don't do "fresh starts" and instead let ppl transfer over. If they do a fresh start, they usually have a balanced economy where theres like 1mil gold going in every day and 1 mil coming out. So the new server will balance with the old servers in a few months.

The problem with FFXIV is that old servers are full of botters and exploiters who made 100's of mil.