Thread: Fresh Start will ruin 2.0

I think there is no need for new servers..

the time that will pass till 2.0. is almost the same period of time which passed between Final Fantasy XI JP ->US->EU (chains of promathia)->Xbox360 release..
you have created your character on one of the "old" FFXI servers when you have been a european, and you also had a chance to catch up with other people.

so why there are new servers needed? im totally against it to split new players from the old.
if you create a new char on WoW servers now you also have a chance.

you will ever have a chance to catch up with the old players. the idea is so "carebear"...



old servers need new players to stay alive and to fresh it up! also in the low level..
totally stupid idea, if you ask me..

Considering SE is planning on adjusting Hamlet according to individual servers, I don't see how it is a farcry for them to adjust policies for economy based on individual servers also.

Originally Posted by Azurymber

the sad fact is this game has been exploited and botted without repercussions for the past 2 years. And if they treat the old servers the same as the new, one of them will lose out and will have an economic collapse. And that will ruin 2.0 at least for some servers.

These exploits and botters have no influence on me or most everyone else playing. I see NO REASON why they should be addressed just cuz you need a scapegoat. And economy is a living, breathing thing with a mind of it's own. You can not simply meld it to fit your whims. Doing so will ALWAYS cause it to bite you back in time.

And when are you going to face that RMT are a part of the game? What's wrong with them? Because they let people "cheat"? Since when was performing a currency exchange cheating? And since when is it appropriate to tell others what they may do with their hard earned money. You know why they have that money? Cuz maybe they we're WORKING and NOT PLAYING THE GAME EARNING GIL.

I don't understand what any of this has to do with "fresh start" servers. I don't understand why all you offer is "what-ifs" and examples from FFXI, but never ask "what-if SE did nothing where would the economies in FFXI be today?" I don't understand why on one server the average amount of gil per person would matter. You provide no other information such as server population, or the server's GDP at the time. You only deal with fixed amounts, not percentages. No one deals in fixed amounts in the real world simply because it's not possible to measure economies that way. This entire post(s) is one big "what-if the RMT take over like FFXI" rant.

What I find most ironic, if I was as confident in how an economy was going to turn out as you are, the *last* thing I would do would be to try to do something that would change it as I would profit greatly. Perhaps this is part of some devious plan?!?

Originally Posted by Laraul

These exploits and botters have no influence on me or most everyone else playing. I see NO REASON why they should be addressed just cuz you need a scapegoat. And economy is a living, breathing thing with a mind of it's own. You can not simply meld it to fit your whims. Doing so will ALWAYS cause it to bite you back in time.

And when are you going to face that RMT are a part of the game? What's wrong with them? Because they let people "cheat"? Since when was performing a currency exchange cheating? And since when is it appropriate to tell others what they may do with their hard earned money. You know why they have that money? Cuz maybe they we're WORKING and NOT PLAYING THE GAME EARNING GIL.

I don't understand what any of this has to do with "fresh start" servers. I don't understand why all you offer is "what-ifs" and examples from FFXI, but never ask "what-if SE did nothing where would the economies in FFXI be today?" I don't understand why on one server the average amount of gil per person would matter. You provide no other information such as server population, or the server's GDP at the time. You only deal with fixed amounts, not percentages. No one deals in fixed amounts in the real world simply because it's not possible to measure economies that way. This entire post(s) is one big "what-if the RMT take over like FFXI" rant.

What I find most ironic, if I was as confident in how an economy was going to turn out as you are, the *last* thing I would do would be to try to do something that would change it as I would profit greatly. Perhaps this is part of some devious plan?!?

what i don't understand is why you are asking economic questions when you don't understand economics....
GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

Protip... this game doesn't have gross investment, government spending, exports, or imports..........


further.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._%28nominal%29
OH LOOK... maybe people do look at economies based on fixed amounts......


Maybe if you bothered to learn economics before you tried to pretend that you understand it you would better understand whats going on in this topic....

Originally Posted by Azurymber

what i don't understand is why you are asking economic questions when you don't understand economics....

(SNIPPED HORRIBLE AND WRONG ECONOMIC NONSENSE)

Maybe if you bothered to learn economics before you tried to pretend that you understand it you would better understand whats going on in this topic....

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

everything you have said in regards to economics has been horrible, wrong, or a combination of both based on available evidence and past trends in both virtual and real world economies... you are the last person to tell people to "learn economics".

Rather than say "zomG your economics is soooo wrongggg" why don't you show whats wrong about it?
I gave the definition of GDP and linked to a wikipedia article.... I'm sure that's all wrong though. Wikipedia is just a conspiracy to trick the average person into believing things that "they" want you to think, right? The Illuminati are really the ones controlling gil levels!

And I don't think you are grasping the concept of how an economy with billions of gil circulating is different from one with no gil.

Let me put it this way:
There are 2 islands totally separate from each other.
Island A, and Island B
On both islands you can make 1000 gold coins a day

Now on island A, most people have 500,000 gold coins saved up.
On island B, most people have less than 10,000 gold coins saved up.

The supply of chocolate bars is equal on both islands. It takes the same amount of work and effort to produce a chocolate bar on Island A as Island B.
In any free market, Island A will have a higher chocolate bar price than Island B. Why? Because island A is experiencing inflation (note: this is assuming the monetarist view. But even under other theories the same thing would occur)

What do I mean by inflation you say? Well think logically. If in 2010, every citizen of island A on average has 100,000 gold. And then by 2012, every citizen on average has 500,000, it means that the amount of gold circulating in an economy has increased 5-fold. That means that 1 piece of gold is now worth 5 times less than it was...

So apply this to ffxiv.
On an old server having 1-million gil may be equal to 100k gil on a new server (value wise).

Confused?
Lets simplify
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average 5000 gil. So there is 500,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil you have 20,000/500,000 or 0.04% of the world's gil.

Now lets say you are on another server.
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average of 50,000 gil. so there is 5,000,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil on this server you have 0.004% of the world's gil. That means you are 10 times poorer than you would be on the "new" server with less gil.

So, by logic,
Lets say SE sets prices for things like airships, dynamis-type entrance fees, crafting materials, etc, based upon how much gil you -CAN- make.
What that means is that if an old server has 10 times more gil than a new one, it is 10 times easier for those on the old server to purchase whatever is being sold.

Put another way, if I spend 1% of my gil on a dynamis entrance fee, someone on a new server would probably have to spend 10%.

In reality, there has been so much exploitation and so many people have over 100mil, that its more like 50 to 100 times easier.

Of course if I -only- did leves, i would be in the same situation as a new player. But I can craft, farm, and gather, and then sell that. Since there is so much gil in the economy, I will always be able to sell my goods for 10 times or more than new servers. Thus I will always have 10 times or more of an advantage when purchasing anything from an npc.

And you might say "nuh uh, the servers will balance over time". But why would they? Players on new and old servers will on average generate the same amount of gil into the economy from the "system". However, on old servers there will always be those billions of gil floating around. So the old servers will always have a massive advantage over new servers when it comes to purchasing anything from an NPC.

I have mentioned many solutions, like diff prices for diff servers, gil sinks prior to new servers, etc. But the chances of SE making good decisions are low, as if they treat one server different than another, people will complain and rage.

I just provided a mathematically based economic explanation of the difference between two servers with different amounts of monetary circulation. If you don't agree, respond in an educated way. Not "ALL LYIESSSSSS"

Originally Posted by Azurymber

Rather than say "zomG your economics is soooo wrongggg" why don't you show whats wrong about it?
I gave the definition of GDP and linked to a wikipedia article.... I'm sure that's all wrong though. Wikipedia is just a conspiracy to trick the average person into believing things that "they" want you to think, right? The Illuminati are really the ones controlling gil levels!

And I don't think you are grasping the concept of how an economy with billions of gil circulating is different from one with no gil.

Let me put it this way:
There are 2 islands totally separate from each other.
Island A, and Island B
On both islands you can make 1000 gold coins a day

Now on island A, most people have 500,000 gold coins saved up.
On island B, most people have less than 10,000 gold coins saved up.

The supply of chocolate bars is equal on both islands. It takes the same amount of work and effort to produce a chocolate bar on Island A as Island B.
In any free market, Island A will have a higher chocolate bar price than Island B. Why? Because island A is experiencing inflation (note: this is assuming the monetarist view. But even under other theories the same thing would occur)

What do I mean by inflation you say? Well think logically. If in 2010, every citizen of island A on average has 100,000 gold. And then by 2012, every citizen on average has 500,000, it means that the amount of gold circulating in an economy has increased 5-fold. That means that 1 piece of gold is now worth 5 times less than it was...

So apply this to ffxiv.
On an old server having 1-million gil may be equal to 100k gil on a new server (value wise).

Confused?
Lets simplify
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average 5000 gil. So there is 500,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil you have 20,000/500,000 or 0.04% of the world's gil.

Now lets say you are on another server.
You have 100 people per server. Each has an average of 50,000 gil. so there is 5,000,000 gil overall in the economy
If you have 20,000 gil on this server you have 0.004% of the world's gil. That means you are 10 times poorer than you would be on the "new" server with less gil.

So, by logic,
Lets say SE sets prices for things like airships, dynamis-type entrance fees, crafting materials, etc, based upon how much gil you -CAN- make.
What that means is that if an old server has 10 times more gil than a new one, it is 10 times easier for those on the old server to purchase whatever is being sold.

Put another way, if I spend 1% of my gil on a dynamis entrance fee, someone on a new server would probably have to spend 10%.

In reality, there has been so much exploitation and so many people have over 100mil, that its more like 50 to 100 times easier.

Of course if I -only- did leves, i would be in the same situation as a new player. But I can craft, farm, and gather, and then sell that. Since there is so much gil in the economy, I will always be able to sell my goods for 10 times or more than new servers. Thus I will always have 10 times or more of an advantage when purchasing anything from an npc.

And you might say "nuh uh, the servers will balance over time". But why would they? Players on new and old servers will on average generate the same amount of gil into the economy from the "system". However, on old servers there will always be those billions of gil floating around. So the old servers will always have a massive advantage over new servers when it comes to purchasing anything from an NPC.

I have mentioned many solutions, like diff prices for diff servers, gil sinks prior to new servers, etc. But the chances of SE making good decisions are low, as if they treat one server different than another, people will complain and rage.

I just provided a mathematically based economic explanation of the difference between two servers with different amounts of monetary circulation. If you don't agree, respond in an educated way. Not "ALL LYIESSSSSS"

Again you are comparing incomparable things.

let's take you islands example: To islands that are completely isolated from each other and have no trade... each have the same supply of chocolate bars and the same demand for them... however apparently the mineral wealth of each island is disporportiante, Island A has more mineral wealth in the form of gold than that of Island B, you of course are presupposing that on Island A due to the mineral's relative abundance that it will have the exact same starting value as Island B where gold is relativley scarce, because as we all know what is considered rare by one culture and used as Currency, is considered rare and used by a Culture that has it in abundance (EX: Spain and Mezzo America in). Secopnd you have yep to show any meaningful way in which the economy of Island B will effect the closed system of Island A and vice versa, on top of this you are basing all of your numbers and subsequent terrible guesses that have never panned out on a static currency/goods supply. and this is not an example of inflation. Inflation would be if the was a sudden shortfall of cash or chocolate on either island and demand stayed constant resulting in a increase in the price of chocolate, or a sudden influx of either cash or chocolate driving the value of on or the other down... What you have described is equilibrium pricing in seperated markets, like for instance the fact that in North Carolina, Gas is $3,45 9/10 per gallon, but in California it is as high as $5.00 9/10 per gallon yet the cost of a barrel of crude oil is the same across all markets.

HOW EXACTLY WITH CHARTS AND GRAPHS! do closed economies with the exact same earning potential, and moneytary inputs and outputs and no contact between each other some how magically affect each other and are somehow cpmpletely immune to their own market forces and also WHY would SE adopt the dumbest pricing structure for NPC items ever devised by man. You have so far completely failed to show why SE would want to use dome or the worst buisness sense or why it would be neccessary to balance all server economies at all.

This thread makes my head hurt.

In the US people over the age of 60 are 20 times richer than those under the age 30... It's because that 60 year old dude has worked for 40-45 years and the 30 year old dude worked for 10.

So you've worked at XIV for 2 years, you have more Gil than the dude that worked at it for 2 months, no brainer right?
Gas, ectricity, a pound of ground beef, and an acre of dirt would cost them both the same, who gives a shit if the young dude has to work a little longer to afford it, the old dude already put his time in.

Why would this game be any different than that?

Originally Posted by waldo

This thread makes my head hurt.

In the US people over the age of 60 are 20 times richer than those under the age 30... It's because that 60 year old dude has worked for 40-45 years and the 30 year old dude worked for 10.

So you've worked at XIV for 2 years

Stopped here because you forgot to mention:

1. Gil was in surplus at the start of service, you could literally make millions on guildleves in a relatively short time compared to now, even spamming 99 leves you won't hit a million+ gil in as short of a period, simply because the way rewards work when you're over leveled and the fact low level leves don't produce that much gil as is.

2. Vendor prices were much much higher on certain items early on as well, thus people made twice as much gil selling to vendors then compared to now.

So while yes "working more/longer means you have more gil", you have to take into consideration that isn't why a lot of people actually had a lot of gil compared to someone new playing (in present time), especially if you're comparing to someone who started in 2010 when the game was horribly broken and horribly unoptimized in even its singular content system.

Nowadays you don't get near as much gil from leves like you used to, not even faction leves. Evaluations can come close (specially for achievement) however it's no where near as lucrative as 2010 just doing regular 8 leves every 36-48 hours ontop of vendoring everything you get for 1-5k a pop.

Originally Posted by Elexia

Stopped here because you forgot to mention:

1. Gil was in surplus at the start of service, you could literally make millions on guildleves in a relatively short time compared to now, even spamming 99 leves you won't hit a million+ gil in as short of a period, simply because the way rewards work when you're over leveled and the fact low level leves don't produce that much gil as is.

2. Vendor prices were much much higher on certain items early on as well, thus people made twice as much gil selling to vendors then compared to now.

So while yes "working more/longer means you have more gil", you have to take into consideration that isn't why a lot of people actually had a lot of gil compared to someone new playing (in present time), especially if you're comparing to someone who started in 2010 when the game was horribly broken and horribly unoptimized in even its singular content system.

Nowadays you don't get near as much gil from leves like you used to, not even faction leves. Evaluations can come close (specially for achievement) however it's no where near as lucrative as 2010 just doing regular 8 leves every 36-48 hours ontop of vendoring everything you get for 1-5k a pop.

This...
Plus this thread has absolutely nothing to do with new people making less than old people. It has to do with the amount of money in circulation on different servers and how that could effect SEs decision making

For example: say SE implemented a repeatable dynamis. They had to decide on what to charge for an hourglass. "look at all the players with capped gil, lets charge 5mil a pop" they might say. So on my server, 5mil a pop is nothing. But on a new server people might need to work for weeks or months to get 5mil. Hence people on the new server cry about how its unfair, and SE drops the price to 500k. But now people on the old server can do like 1000s of dynamis runs. People on the new server cry that people on the old server have 10 times more dynamis gear then them. SE abandons gil and makes everything a primal fight.

Thats just one -possible- example.

Yes, they can work around it if:

They treat different servers differently (resulting in cross-server rage at unfair treatment)
But then, they can't let anyone ever transfer to that server because if 10 people brought capped gil they would destroy the servers economy

They never use gil as anything more than trading currency
In this case they might as well just get rid of npcs that sell stuff. Make airships and stuff like that free. And never introduce elite dynamis-level gear that have purchasable items (as people with 999,999,999 will grab them all up like hotcakes and have a dynamis weapon a month after its released, again pissing ppl off on the new servers who will never see one for years)

And there are a lot of other very good ways they could work around it mentioned here.