Endgame should be challenging - that's the point (from a casual player)

[Infindox]

People dismissing this point would hate on Linkshells if they were functional "mimimimi, I don't wanna join a linkshell to do content", but sure, lets keep blaming discord untill the sun blows up

Actually no, if linkshells actually functioned the way they should, I would be extremely happy to use them to find people to run stuff with.

[SamRF]

1) What threshold would constitute challenging enough for you at endgame? NM raid level? Occult Crescent CEs? Extreme trials? Where do you set the bar?

2) What about players that get left behind because they cannot follow yet play for the story? Do they drop out of the game when they reach a wall?

3) Maybe not everybody is playing the game with the same goals than you, maybe some aren't playing the game to turn it into a homework or want to study the blade and improve until they beat something they ..[truncated]

So full disclaimer, it's been a while since I got to endgame myself. Last time was in the middle of Shadowbringers, so I have no reference of what current endgame looks like. What I'm criticizing is the sentiment I read on these forums. Reading that Dawntrail has some challenging content made me more interested to reach there and experience it, and I found it a pity that it's being criticized here.

This may be unpopular, but I believe the "normal mode" of endgame content should either not exist or be much harder. Content and story should be locked behind the hard content, similar to how Coil was in ARR. Being rewarded with content is more satisfying than gear, because gear is just a treadmill. Content has actual substance.

You think it may already be the case with raids unlocking as you complete them, but not really, because you already played those raids in normal mode and experienced some of their mechanics. If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits.

You could find party finder groups deep into Heavensward and later for clearing Coil, and I believe mostly for story reasons. Coil brought so much value for so long because there was NO normal mode. If you wanted the story, you had to do it the hard way, or none. THAT is rewarding my friend. I get chills just thinking about it. It's a pity that doesn't exist anymore.

The MSQ can stay casual-friendly so there remains a linear accessible path. But overcoming challenge is universally satisfying. Even if some players aren't playing for that purpose, they should be satisfied with the linear MSQ while the game shifts values for other content. And they can do older challenging content when overgeared!

[Daralii]

You could find party finder groups deep into Heavensward and later for clearing Coil, and I believe mostly for story reasons. Coil brought so much value for so long because there was NO normal mode. If you wanted the story, you had to do it the hard way, or none. THAT is rewarding my friend. I get chills just thinking about it. It's a pity that doesn't exist anymore.

Second Coil was when they introduced savage as a concept, but alright.

[Granyala]

But overcoming challenge is universally satisfying.

Depends on the level of the challenge. Content should not be braindead but I don't need "teeth gnashing, controller tossing" levels of unforgiving game design, relying on split second reactions and instagibs. I have enough of that in real working life already. Well not the instagibs, as I don't work in the military but you get the point. ;'D

As someone that raided in an organized fashion on Mythic/Savage level for over a decade, I can tell you that what people want is a spectrum. These days I am less and less inclined to put up with all the Bullshit modern Videogames throw at me. Especially when it comes to logistics. The whole "play on a schedule" eventually burned me out completely. I want to play when I feel like it and for how long I feel like it and not be tied down to "do 3 raids a week à 3hrs straight".

To me THAT is the definition of playing casually. Being a casual, does not mean one has "no skill".

In my opinion, FF-XIV's biggest problem is that there is very little "in between" content. It is reminiscent of World of Warcraft in that regard. There you too reached a "raid or die" point fairly quickly.
You have easy content (MSQ, Overworld, 4 man dungeons, 8man normal, zones like Occult, Bozja etc) and then you have brick-walls: Savage/Ultimate, as well as Extreme Primals to a lesser extent.

Dungeons like Baldesions and the new Tower in OC are prime examples of how NOT to design engaging content. The amount of hoops people need to jump through just to participate in what turns out to be mediocre content at best is just mind boggling.

[Mawlzy]

So full disclaimer, it's been a while since I got to endgame myself. Last time was in the middle of Shadowbringers, so I have no reference of what current endgame looks like. What I'm criticizing is the sentiment I read on these forums. Reading that Dawntrail has some challenging content made me more interested to reach there and experience it, and I found it a pity that it's being criticized here.

This may be unpopular, but I believe the "normal mode" of endgame content should either not exist or be much harder. Content and story should be locked behind the hard content, similar to how Coil was in ARR. Being rewarded with content is more satisfying than gear, because gear is just a treadmill. Content has actual substance.

You think it may already be the case with raids unlocking as you complete them, but not really, because you already played those raids in normal mode and experienced some of their mechanics. If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits.

You could find party finder groups deep into Heavensward and later for clearing Coil, and I believe mostly for story reasons. Coil brought so much value for so long because there was NO normal mode. If you wanted the story, you had to do it the hard way, or none. THAT is rewarding my friend. I get chills just thinking about it. It's a pity that doesn't exist anymore.

The MSQ can stay casual-friendly so there remains a linear accessible path. But overcoming challenge is universally satisfying. Even if some players aren't playing for that purpose, they should be satisfied with the linear MSQ while the game shifts values for other content. And they can do older challenging content when overgeared!

I think most of your assumptions here are wrong for a significant minority of current FF14 subscribers.

"Content and story should be locked behind the hard content." You're advocating gating the MSQ more rigorously than it already is? Kiss goodbye to 40% of the NA/EU player base.

"If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits."

No it wouldn't. This is a game, not a career or an Esport. I can't imagine how you reach this conclusion.

"If you wanted the story, you had to do it the hard way, or none. THAT is rewarding my friend."

I can see how it is rewarding to those capable of doing it; a minority of the NA/EU player base. Given the current content balance, using this as a model would be a disaster.

"But overcoming challenge is universally satisfying."

I really have no idea where this comes from. There is nothing satisfying about overcoming a task that is tedious and unenjoyable. Again, this is a game. We're not attempting to pass the bar exam.

[Jeeqbit]

The issue with coils was that people wanted to do the story without having to overcome a difficult raid, because a lot of MMO players have actually avoided challenging stuff and just done story stuff, RP stuff, grinds or PvP, since the beginning of MMOs really, even if their developers didn't notice this trend.

So I agree with the principle of two modes since I believe every game should have an easy mode and a hard mode.

But sometimes the easyness has gone overboard in the past. It's ok for it to kill you a few times. That's what healers and rezzers are for. That's what trying again is for. They've been better at it in Dawntrail because they decided parties wiping sometimes is alright. If there's never any deaths or wipes then there's no real threat from what is supposed to be a boss.

Second Coil was when they introduced savage as a concept, but alright.

Not properly. It was an experiment:
1. The max item level gear dropped from coils. Because it was meant to be what savage is now.
2. The savage version was instead just an achievement, kinda like Ultimates are now to some extent.
3. It was only for the second tier, since it was only an experiment.

[Kaurhz]

Whilst we're out here advocating for more challenge at the end-game, can we also go back to the original HW design please for Crafters? bring back Concealed nodes and capped scrip currencies with gear that actually *required* specialist.

Bring back the glory days when people had to pay more for an Astral Silk Doublet of Healing than what they do an entire set currently.

[Granyala]

"If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits."

No it wouldn't. This is a game, not a career or an Esport. I can't imagine how you reach this conclusion.

Ghostcrawler, a developer from World of Warcraft put it best:
Most players will not actually rise to a steep challenge. They will, in fact, rather quit the game.

Whilst we're out here advocating for more challenge at the end-game, can we also go back to the original HW design please for Crafters? bring back Concealed nodes and capped scrip currencies with gear that actually *required* specialist.

Sorry but there is nothing challenging about being crafter. Never has been.
It's just spend playtime to jump through overblown stat hoops.

ESPECIALLY in a time when we have resources like Teamcraft available to us.

And yes: I have done expert crafts for relics that don't work with macros and force manual play.

But sometimes the easyness has gone overboard in the past. It's ok for it to kill you a few times. That's what healers and rezzers are for. That's what trying again is for. They've been better at it in Dawntrail because they decided parties wiping sometimes is alright. If there's never any deaths or wipes then there's no real threat from what is supposed to be a boss.

Agreed. Call me a masochist but I actually enjoyed meaner 4 man dungeons in ARR like Aurum Vale. I also enjoyed the mean heroic dungeons way back when in WoW's Burning Crusade.

It's such a bummer that "Expert dungeons" are easier than their leveling counterparts now.

Was hyped for the Criterion dungeons in EW to be a step up but these were way too punishing. Not even my ex savage raiding buddies wanted to bother with them, lol.

[Kaurhz]

Ghostcrawler, a developer from World of Warcraft put it best:
Most players will not actually rise to a steep challenge. They will, in fact, rather quit the game.
Sorry but there is nothing challenging about being crafter. Never has been.
It's just spend playtime to jump through overblown stat hoops.

ESPECIALLY in a time when we have resources like Teamcraft available to us.

And yes: I have done expert crafts for relics that don't work with macros and force manual play.

Perhaps not difficult, but it certainly wasn't really something you could just half-commit to, especially in the earlier part of the expansion, seeing as it asked for your attention in many facets of the game.

Alternatives to Teamcraft have existed for a very long-time, Before TC it was Lokyst and various forks..., Granted, they weren't pinpoint accuracy, but generally the amount of time you would stumble into issues with it was far and few between.

To be honest, I don't even know why you've mentioned experts, don't really care if you have done them, really. The abilities have been gutted so far that it's just not really the same, even if you want to argue "Overblown stat hoops".

[Musashidon]

"If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits."

yea some people obviously wasnt here in ARR where that literally didnt happen all that happened is people didnt do it and then came to the forums saying how they were locked out of the raid story cause they couldnt do the content and having to go to youtube to see it was aweful, so guess what heavensward up had normal mode because they didnt push past their limits and got better they just quit.