Endgame should be challenging - that's the point (from a casual player)

[Avoidy]

From my perspective, the bulk of this postgame content has been designed largely for challenge-seekers. For the first year of it, people who wanted coordinated and difficult raid content got savage raids and ultimates and they even got the exciting new chaotic raid for them, and now there's a foray and they got the endgame of that designed just for them as well. Think about that: as a casual player, you might've heard that alliance raids were getting some new mode and expected it to be pick-up-and-go, since that's what alliance raids always were and they were clearly targeting the alliance raid demographic by calling it a chaotic alliance raid, right? But no. It's just more discord raidslop. And now there's a foray with a relic, the kind of content casuals (or maybe casuals is the wrong term, since relic grinds can be brutal; for now, just assume casual means someone who isn't into hyper coordinated memory-meme "know the hector strat before you go in" style raid content) have been sitting on their hands waiting to do, except the big rewarding dungeon at the end of the grind is even MORE hyper coordinated discord raidslop.

At this point, as someone who doesn't enjoy this game's take on difficult raiding content and doesn't have the time to form a static and prog it anymore anyway, I'm really excited to see how they'll screw up Variant dungeons and Deep Dungeons. Like, how are they going to twist this into something for raiders while completely alienating the broader demographic that could've enjoyed it? Time will tell, I guess. But yeah, OP your post is insane to me. Nobody's really been eating good in this drip-feed day and age, but raidslop enjoyers have been eating WAY better than most in post-DT so I have no idea what you're even on about right now.

[Bubblesong]

First of all, generally speaking there are some huge issues the FFXIV has right now

1. "Midcore" is a Term which was created from player which didnt want to call themselfes "casual" so the actually term "midcore" doesnt exist like casual or hardcore, and the first time i heard about it was literally in FFXIV, never heard it before in my 18y MMO experience

2.People here think "Casuals" doesnt raid or if you raid and want challenging content you arent a "Casual" you are a "Hardcoreplayer" which is dumb as hell sorry to tell ya but if you raid or want challening content you can still be a casual, the difference between Casual and Hardcore is just the amount of Time they spend on certain content, take as example one of my best friends, he raids 2h each week still cleared the tier and is in the 95+ log area, and he still says he is not hardcore he is casual

3. People which refuses to join discords or statics or anything and complain then "ohhh that content needs again social interaction" bruhh you are playing a MMO if you dont wanna social interactions its YOUR problem, not SE´s problem or the Community´s Problem is one and only YOUR problem, dont play a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE Game if you dont wanna bother with social interactions

4. People which refuses to do any content which involves learning a fight or playing the class properly and then complaining about "the game is too hard there is nothing to do for casuals" mimimi, like i said previous you arent a casual you are a imbecile,

not once in my 18 years mmo experience was there a MMORPG which didnt had Challening Content as Endgame Activity, only FFXIV has the issue with the crybabys to such a huge extend so yea maybe its really time to start being a true MMORPG with a Endgame and start to even increase the Difficulity of the Content more, Eat or Die, if you dont like it? Leave, after all FFXIV IS A MMORPG

Freaking final bubble with all the crybabys

im absolutly for increasing difficulity and creating even more challening content.

Midcole term has always exist way before ffxiv even exist ot was a term however its always a term that everyone choice to ignore.

In essence midsole are typically players who do put extreme amount of time in the games, do enjoy a challenge and harder content however they do not do a set schedule and try to the extreme level of hard-core. I'd say the vast majority people in 14 are midcole we want challenges and all that we just don't want those challenges to be extremely social, I want to challenge myself but I don't want to deal with that many people that the "harder" content requires

Now with vc I can get that but it's sad that's the only harder content with at max 4 players.. I'm srry but I don't want to do something with 8 or 24 people

[OlafQuintessa]

Some people may misunderstand what "accessibility" means in MMO design. It doesn't mean making all content equally easy - it means having content that matches different time investments and commitment levels. The leveling experience and normal content already serve casual players well. Endgame should remain challenging for those who seek it out, even if that means mid-core players sometimes need to either step up or step back.

I agree here. The accessibility of anything above normal is the real turn off. I don't think sitting around in party finder for hours is the right gateway for people who want to "step up" to try something a bit harder like extreme or unreal. It's a crappy way to spend an evening. The reality is you either get in with the rush to clear in the first week or two, or you're left trying to fill prog parties that no one wants to join. I thought Criterion was going to be a nice middle ground somewhere between normal and savage, only requiring 4 people, but it was another missed opportunity. I've seen people say that extremes are casual content, which is just so wrong. It's hours in PF on top of hours to learn and clear - and sure it should be difficult, but that's a massive step up from 10 minutes in duty finder, a couple of wipes, and you're done.

The problem isn't that the endgame is extreme and savage, the problem is there's nothing in between - either in terms of difficulty or accessibility. The really dispiriting thing is that we've had it confirmed in an interview that there never will be either - chaotic was exactly their vision of midcore, but it's both savage and difficult to get into. By all means leave the current tiers of difficult content as they are, but let's have something else as well - re-do Criterion and cut out half of all the mechanics for example.

[SamRF]

I think most of your assumptions here are wrong for a significant minority of current FF14 subscribers.

"Content and story should be locked behind the hard content." You're advocating gating the MSQ more rigorously than it already is? Kiss goodbye to 40% of the NA/EU player base.

"If normal mode wasn't an option, it would motivate people to get better and push their limits."

No it wouldn't. This is a game, not a career or an Esport. I can't imagine how you reach this conclusion.

"If you wanted the story, you had to do it the hard way, or none. THAT is rewarding my friend."

I can see how it is rewarding to those capable of doing it; a minority of the NA/EU player base. Given the current content balance, using this as a model would be a disaster.

"But overcoming challenge is universally satisfying."

I really have no idea where this comes from. There is nothing satisfying about overcoming a task that is tedious and unenjoyable. Again, this is a game. We're not attempting to pass the bar exam.

There would be the alternative to do the content when it's older and you are overgeared. Also I didn't advocate gating MSQ but rather some side stories.

[Granyala]

To be honest, I don't even know why you've mentioned experts, don't really care if you have done them, really.

I mentioned Experts simply because they cannot be crafted reliably with a macro. Everything else can, once you figure out a rotation.
To call crafting "difficult" is just dishonest.
It's as easy and braindead as games can be. It just ate a shitload of time, especially due to overmelds being mandatory in early game and grabbing materia via spirit binding yourself was a major slog.

And I did craft in ARR and Heavensward, so I know what I am talking about, even if memory is a bit hazy after all this time.

Needing a lot of time for no reason != hard content. That is tedious content. Very different thing and I am glad that SE toned down on that when it comes to crafting.

I wish they would do something with the: "stand around for half an hour to be able to hit a gathering node for 10 seconds" as well. Such asinine design.

I'm really excited to see how they'll screw up Variant dungeons and Deep Dungeons. Like, how are they going to twist this into something for raiders while completely alienating the broader demographic that could've enjoyed it?

My guess is: the same as in EW, really.
Mostly obscure one-shot mechanics, added with: "F-you player you wipe you start from scratch" sprinkled with some "no rezzes!!" on top.

The main reason why my savage raiding folks didn't want to bother with the Criterion dungeons was that the overhead was too much. We don't have a problem with wiping on mean bosses but having a game not respect our time by forcing a restart every time? No forkin' thank you. Same reason we never bothered with this deep dungeon nonsense. No permanent progress is a major turn-off once you are no longer a kiddo with infinite time.

That and the gear apparently didn't look fabulous enough. *chuckles*

[Mawlzy]

There would be the alternative to do the content when it's older and you are overgeared. Also I didn't advocate gating MSQ but rather some side stories.

Not sure with the current fight design philosophy how much this'd help. If you can't avoid piling up vuln stacks, you're toast.

That said, I do suspect one reason for the player exodus is that those that started around the COVID influx were overgeared through EW, then hit the difficulty increase of DT around min ilevel and either cannot do it or simply can't be bothered with the hassle.

[Granyala]

Not sure with the current fight design philosophy how much this'd help. If you can't avoid piling up vuln stacks, you're toast.

That's super easy.
First of all: increased HP and defensive stats will get you some wiggle room.
Secondly: SE can set the vuln stack-flag to 0 or re-blance the numbers at any time, if they feel the content is no longer viable.

That being said: people that crave challenge have more than enough to do. I see no reason to up the difficulty of the remaining content to savage level as well. Not every gamer plays videogames for challenge reasons. Many just want to relax after a stressful work day.
One playstyle isn't less valid than the other.

[Mawlzy]

That's super easy.
First of all: increased HP and defensive stats will get you some wiggle room.
Secondly: SE can set the vuln stack-flag to 0 or re-blance the numbers at any time, if they feel the content is no longer viable.

That being said: people that crave challenge have more than enough to do. I see no reason to up the difficulty of the remaining content to savage level as well. Not every gamer plays videogames for challenge reasons. Many just want to relax after a stressful work day.
One playstyle isn't less valid than the other.

Yeah the last thing I'd want is any more hard content, particularly that gates the story.

I've advocated in other threads for making key content dual-track. You simply cannot keep everyone of all skill and interest levels happy, but as you say, there are many ways to make fights easier for those who have quite enough "challenges" from 9-to-5.

[CidHeiral]

That being said: people that crave challenge have more than enough to do. I see no reason to up the difficulty of the remaining content to savage level as well.

I would be surprised if very many people want all normal content to be savage difficulty. Most just wanted the content to require you to be awake and using your brain to complete it, which is about where it's at now. It's nowhere near savage difficulty.

[Kaurhz]

I mentioned Experts simply because they cannot be crafted reliably with a macro. Everything else can, once you figure out a rotation.
To call crafting "difficult" is just dishonest.
It's as easy and braindead as games can be. It just ate a shitload of time, especially due to overmelds being mandatory in early game and grabbing materia via spirit binding yourself was a major slog.

And I did craft in ARR and Heavensward, so I know what I am talking about, even if memory is a bit hazy after all this time.

Needing a lot of time for no reason != hard content. That is tedious content. Very different thing and I am glad that SE toned down on that when it comes to crafting.

I wish they would do something with the: "stand around for half an hour to be able to hit a gathering node for 10 seconds" as well. Such asinine design.

Like I said, perhaps not difficult but it demanded attention, and this is just where I am simply going to disagree with you.. The ability to craft endgame crafted gear should not just simply be a freebie for merely having a pulse and reaching the endgame level. Because that is the situation where nigh on every facet of the game suffers from. You were rewarded for engaging with the systems, e.g., WWYW. Some abilities still involved an element of resource management and appropriation, e.g., not wasting CP on Ingenuity when you didn't really need to. Then really just given the fact that if you wanted to engage with master recipes from the ARR-era, you will still pretty much required to engage with those master recipes, e.g., going from Treated Spruce Lumber to get your master recipe book I, and then Master Recipe Book II by crafting Reinforced Spruce Plywood, it combined several other systems, e.g., Grand Companies and Desynthesis.

and frankly, you may dislike many of those systems, which is your own prerogative... But really this whole avenue of leaving everything to the wayside in forgotten and abandoned systems in favor of instant completion is precisely why this game is as soul-less as it is in many facets.

But then really if you want to get down to it, much of ARR-era was not really difficult anyway, you had an aggressive innate delay which just made gameplay unresponsive... Many fights were buggy in ways that just made clearing a nuisance, e.g., non-intuitive stats for average player, e.g., people over-capping accuracy like crazy and wasting secondary stats... Sure they were creative -- the encounters -- But much of the difficulty was still lent to the fact of abysmal design.

and this whole "Stand around for half an hour to be able to hit a gathering node for 10 seconds", is pretty much exacerbated by the fact they've reduced it into such a streamlined and meaningless existence.... If the systems were actually substantive behind it, then you wouldn't be doing that -- Because you would for example be going around doing concealed nodes, stocking up on Demimateria from desynthesis, going around doing duties or crafting items to stock up on your Grand Company to purchase materials for said master recipes... As the material distribution for these items was also adjusted when they elected to just pour everything into direct scrip and folklore. e.g., needing 3 folklore material per craft, in addition to a GC item as opposed to just straight 4 folklore material items.

This whole discarding of 'needing a lot of time for no reason, and being tedious content' -- Is precisely why you're doing the whole... Whack 1 node for 10 seconds and then wait 5-30 minutes for the next. You may not have liked these systems, but their absence of many of these systems is precisely why you have that gameplay.