We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Supersnow845]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Bloodwhetting gets uniquely hated on because WAR’s cracked sustain in casual content is the basis of why they added so much sustain to ALL the tanks they don’t need

It’s not a matter of removing BW, it’s a matter of none of the tanks need the amount of healing their short CD’s have, nerf BW’s healing and buff its mitigation for savage tanksbusters, HS and HOC just don’t need healing. PLD’s rotational healing is anti healer bloat, equilibrium and shake are excessively strong and now even abyssal drain is basically a benediction in AOE

All tank healing needs to be severely pruned down. A tanks health shouldn’t be sustained entirely from their own healing AND have the ability to sustain others as well

[Jim5K]

Im really not sure what tankbuster you are talking about that hits so hard it would immediately kill you the moment you dont have the 10% from Stem the Flow.
Even Wave Canon hits "only" for like 75k with 2Min, Your Jobs 90s , Physranged Mit, Tank Partymit , Succor , Expedient and Healer ST. The 10% would reduce what.. 15k at most? The old Warrior MaxHP trait would give you 27k more HP instead to a total of around 155k with your 90s, 137k without 90s.
But thats not really the point here. Taking away defensive options on any tank wouldnt fix the sustain and solo capability problem of tanks outside of savage and ultimates. The self sustain is the problem and needs to be nerfed on all tanks especially warrior.

Idk where you got those numbers from, but I highly suggest progging the ultimate and talk from your experience there, yes? Wave Cannon is a line stack which hits the first 2 targets in front for up to 200-250k unmitigated so 1 tank has to use invulnerability so healers can focus resources on only 1 tank and the party and here a kicker - roughly 40s before Wave Cannon 1 and 40s after Wave Cannon 2 both tanks will have to mit for Cosmo dive which is another heavy hit tankbuster. Yeah, 27k more hp from the old WAR trait would help tanking autos from the boss for they hit around 35-40k per auto but not much if any for the tankbusters. Healers and tanks resources are heavily used in P6 so idk how leaving a WAR with only rampart and vengeance as mits for they have very long cooldowns and take away its short cooldown's mitigation property and covering skill like nascent flash would ever make it viable and not a deadweight for that fight and i still haven't mentioned DSR and FRU yet. In FRU currently with all its kit WAR still needs help from co-tank and healers, now imagine with only 2 mits with long cooldowns and how that would do to WAR.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Because I highly doubt cutting their damage reduction and replacing it with more max HP and more healing received like they used to have would drastically hurt their ability to survive attacks.


But other tanks do need their healing gutted, I just think they could let WAR still be what it's been in the past.

[Rithy255]

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

Problem is skills like bloodwhetting only feels good for the warrior, It doesn't feel good for the healers. While I have no issue with some self healing, when it replaces a main function of a role even in dungeon content I do not think it's a good design

If there was a healer that could force aggro on itself and mitigate more damage then the tank, it may feel fun for that healer but it also completely invalidates tanks.

Warrior also has literally self healing tied to every single defensive cooldown, It would need to be reduced in order for healers to actually heal the warrior, other tanks are also not perfect Paladin has too much healing from magic attacks I think you need to reduce/remove that, GNB's aurora didn't need a buff and I think Dark knight is fine as it is now.

[YukioKobayashi]

Idk where you got those numbers from, but I highly suggest progging the ultimate and talk from your experience there, yes? Wave Cannon is a line stack which hits the first 2 targets in front for up to 200-250k unmitigated so 1 tank has to use invulnerability so healers can focus resources on only 1 tank and the party and here a kicker - roughly 40s before Wave Cannon 1 and 40s after Wave Cannon 2 both tanks will have to mit for Cosmo dive which is another heavy hit tankbuster. Yeah, 27k more hp from the old WAR trait would help tanking autos from the boss for they hit around 35-40k per auto but not much if any for the tankbusters. Healers and tanks resources are heavily used in P6 so idk how leaving a WAR with only rampart and vengeance as mits for they have very long cooldowns and take away its short cooldown's mitigation property and covering skill like nascent flash would ever make it viable and not a deadweight for that fight and i still haven't mentioned DSR and FRU yet. In FRU currently with all its kit WAR still needs help from co-tank and healers, now imagine with only 2 mits with long cooldowns and how that would do to WAR.

200k to 250k - your own 2min - the amount of party shields and mit = roughly 75k without Stem the Flow.
10% would reduce considering the diminishing returns 15k at most. Means the old Warrior MaxHP buff would be better there. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.
You yourself took 71k there without Aquaveil 15%, Benesion ~ 10k Shield, Haima/Panhaima, Holos or Temperance. Your healers were simply not pressing buttons except E.Prognosis and Kera. Your WHM had one Aquaveil and one Benesion in the entire final phase. If you still think Warrior is the problem why you took so much damage there then sorry.. I cant help you.

[hydralus]

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

[Aravell]

I wonder if a solution like this would help the situation:

Make autoattacks bypass innate defensive value but not mitigation

So instead of tanks taking about 70% less damage from autoattacks compared to casters, they'd take only 20% less damage from everyone else passively due to the tank mastery trait. So while tanks can still delay death by using mitigation, they can't do it indefinitely as they'd eventually run out and die without healer support.

[Servebotfrank]

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

That comes up in almost every bit of content, TBN just never breaks outside of trash or specific tankbusters because nothing hits really hard. In Savage it breaks in like two autos.

[Heavenchild]

I liked your 5 min wipe solution. Elegant and simple.

Thanks.
I thought, a solution that solves the problem without taking something from tanks away will be better 'all in all'. : )

On one side people don't want homogenization. But, on the other side, making tanks weaker in 'tanking' would just be a homogenization.
It's: Make tanks more similar to everything else.
I do not want this. :c

[Jim5K]

200k to 250k - your own 2min - the amount of party shields and mit = roughly 75k without Stem the Flow.
10% would reduce considering the diminishing returns 15k at most. Means the old Warrior MaxHP buff would be better there. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.
You yourself took 71k there without Aquaveil 15%, Benesion ~ 10k Shield, Haima/Panhaima, Holos or Temperance. Your healers were simply not pressing buttons except E.Prognosis and Kera. Your WHM had one Aquaveil and one Benesion in the entire final phase. If you still think Warrior is the problem why you took so much damage there then sorry.. I cant help you.

So you been using a party line stack mechanic to justify a tank's kit deserves to be gutted and make it even weaker than it already is for high-end contents? Wave cannon is the easiest thing to deal with in TOP tbh and it's not even a tankbuster. Also surviving a tankbuster with 50% hp compare to 70% is a world of difference in savages and ultimates where there are mit plans for them because every skill's cooldown and resources are counted by the seconds. And have you trying to ignore what i posted on purpose? The old WAR passive is still there in the form of Thrill of battle, stacking it on top of thrill would make WAR hp so bloated to the point a WAR would be more favorable than the other tanks which in turn would ruin the comp diversity, replacing it with Thrill would be no better since it would lower the skill celling and make the job boring with all that 24/7 hp buff and healing recieved. I just checked all the posts you've made in this thread and it seems like you into job identity in a very bad way to the point it would ruin the comp diversity and kill the game if implemented. I'm glad every tank has almost the same kits now to deal with mechanics, like dude, i don't want to be forced to play PLD or see every team comp has to have PLD because it's the only tank with covering abilities or tell to stay off of WAR because it had so few defensive cooldowns to cycle through and no covering ability. If all the tanks had a Passage of Arms in 8.0 to not make PLD a more favorable pick because of mechanics then so be it, job identity tied to mechanic solving skills like defensive skills, healing and shields is so bad it is borderline insanity, imagine trying to join a static or a PF party but get refused outright or locked out of your beloved job because that group needs a specific job for easier mechanics and the job you love doesn't have such thing because the game doesn't allow it to happen. Job identity on the other hand is very much welcomed in dps rotations however, make each job's rotation unique and make them fun to use.