We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Heavenchild]

Maybe some kind of clickable thing, when people walked back to the boss, standing outsite. When everyone clicked it and voted for wipe tank, then tanks HP fall to 0.
Or in alliance raid 'when enough people' clicked it (maybe 15?).

In trials and stuff it must be different. Maybe a votewipe option and/or auto-wipetank when everone else is ded, after 3..., 5 minutes?

[Kozh]

Just don't die, lmao

Brain dead take

[Taranok]

This has been talked to death, I'm sure, but I'm bringing it up again because when you're literally sitting there for a solid 30m straight watching M5 burn with two tanks sustaining each other as GNB/WAR, it is boring.

Mechanics are nice to do, but when you've messed up since it's your first time through and you're forced to watch it go all the way from 30% to 0%? It's bad. VERY BAD. Even if we can talk about "skill issues" the problem is still going to repeat itself: Tanks are in a position where they can duo any raid content on Normal mode that doesn't have harsh party LB requirements or mechanics that force the Tanks to do something.

I'd rather enjoy wiping than I do just having Tanks steamroll a fight, because that's part of learning. Some of these people have it their first time through and will never do it again because they get pushed through by Tanks, so in all honesty we need a fix in the next major balance patch to prevent this.

Either outgoing damage on Tanks HAS to go up(Bring back Crit Autos), or Tank Self-Healing has to go down. You can't have both.

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

[Voryn]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

[Heavenchild]

Okay, lets make it much more simple and functional for most content: (for group content involing other players)
-> If everyone else is dead, and just tank oder tanks are left with the boss, then they will get wiped after 5 min.

So tanks can stay as they are. And all other players are protected from some weirdos, who for example think it's a good idea to make a 20min solo show. xD

[HyperiusUltima]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

I'd argue that XIV is not making content too hard. We went from Post-Patch EW being "too easy" and cranked the levels up to where it should be at this level. Like, if you go back and do EW dungeons? They'll be destroyed altogether and are braindead easy. They don't have the HP worth a fly and their mechanics are pretty easy. DT Dungeons became harder because of the fact that the playerbase was annoyed with all the dungeons being very easy. Dungeons are a bit harder, even for post-patch, but keeping consistent dungeon difficulty helps the player keep trying to improve. If you fail, then you try again. That's the general nature of any boss fight you do in the game, even sub-bosses.

Dealing with the brunt of bad Healers in a higher level dungeon is rough, and I get it - but honestly the playerbase has complained about XYZ being too hard since the dawn of time - some actually real, others just because of their lack of perception of difficulty of a job. This has led us to where we are now with a 2m Meta that is stale as crap - to compensate, they've made dungeons harder than what Post-patch EW was. You can't leave the glass half full. If you make jobs advanced, mechanics, dungeons and such have to ease up. If you make jobs simple, the mechanics and dungeons have to be harder. It's that simple on a basic level until you dive into EX and Savage and Ultimate.

[RedLolly]

Honestly I don't understand why tanks have so much self-sustain when the DPS jobs don't require anything close to that and are expected to still clear everything.

Meanwhile, healers get by despite their crappy damage output because of those heals, tanks should be completing content by leveraging their high defense and enormous health pools.

[ForteNightshade]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

No offense, but this is simply wrong. Nothing Dawntrail's dungeons offer are even remotely close to Extreme levels. They're little more than a pay attention check. Which is a upgrade from "do you have a pulse?" that we've seen in previous expansions. Perhaps the worst offender here is the Halloween mask boss, but that's more to do with how long the stun lasts and XIV's horrendous hit detection than the mechanic itself being difficult. The average player isn't struggling with these dungeons whatsoever. Maybe they die, but it's still manageable without much in the way of a hinderance. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. Even more casual content should have some measure of bite to it, albeit on a lower scale.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

Unfortunately, it isn't. They aren't obligated to kill themselves because you or anyone else died and can no longer participate. Now if everyone is arguing for them to wipe, it gets a bit more debatable, but the GMs will always ere on the side of giving the benefit of doubt. After all, technically, neither tank in the OP's scenario are doing anything outside what their jobs allow. Are they jerks? Absolutely. But you can't force people to kill themselves or demand they do.

Honestly I don't understand why tanks have so much self-sustain when the DPS jobs don't require anything close to that and are expected to still clear everything.

Meanwhile, healers get by despite their crappy damage output because of those heals, tanks should be completing content by leveraging their high defense and enormous health pools.

Because everything in this game is built on coddling the general playerbase and removing as many outright fail states as they can. Tanks having so much sustain means healers aren't required to focus on healing, which the devs seem to think is a very strenuous endeavour. It also means a healer messing up doesn't guarantee a wipe in any content outside the higher end.

Basically, it's insurance that dungeons will rarely see full party wipes.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

Taking away Tanks abilities to heal others is definitely one of the things that would help, and for the most part reducing their self healing in general as well. It would solve part of the issues with healers as well as they currently don't need to learn their job as tanks do it for them.

[Heavenchild]

I see. There seems to be no real interest in solutions other than 'make tanks weaker'. In this case: I hope the devs are more creative or do nothing about it. :c