We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Taranok]

This has been talked to death, I'm sure, but I'm bringing it up again because when you're literally sitting there for a solid 30m straight watching M5 burn with two tanks sustaining each other as GNB/WAR, it is boring.

Mechanics are nice to do, but when you've messed up since it's your first time through and you're forced to watch it go all the way from 30% to 0%? It's bad. VERY BAD. Even if we can talk about "skill issues" the problem is still going to repeat itself: Tanks are in a position where they can duo any raid content on Normal mode that doesn't have harsh party LB requirements or mechanics that force the Tanks to do something.

I'd rather enjoy wiping than I do just having Tanks steamroll a fight, because that's part of learning. Some of these people have it their first time through and will never do it again because they get pushed through by Tanks, so in all honesty we need a fix in the next major balance patch to prevent this.

Either outgoing damage on Tanks HAS to go up(Bring back Crit Autos), or Tank Self-Healing has to go down. You can't have both.

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

[HyperiusUltima]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

I'd argue that XIV is not making content too hard. We went from Post-Patch EW being "too easy" and cranked the levels up to where it should be at this level. Like, if you go back and do EW dungeons? They'll be destroyed altogether and are braindead easy. They don't have the HP worth a fly and their mechanics are pretty easy. DT Dungeons became harder because of the fact that the playerbase was annoyed with all the dungeons being very easy. Dungeons are a bit harder, even for post-patch, but keeping consistent dungeon difficulty helps the player keep trying to improve. If you fail, then you try again. That's the general nature of any boss fight you do in the game, even sub-bosses.

Dealing with the brunt of bad Healers in a higher level dungeon is rough, and I get it - but honestly the playerbase has complained about XYZ being too hard since the dawn of time - some actually real, others just because of their lack of perception of difficulty of a job. This has led us to where we are now with a 2m Meta that is stale as crap - to compensate, they've made dungeons harder than what Post-patch EW was. You can't leave the glass half full. If you make jobs advanced, mechanics, dungeons and such have to ease up. If you make jobs simple, the mechanics and dungeons have to be harder. It's that simple on a basic level until you dive into EX and Savage and Ultimate.

[ForteNightshade]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

No offense, but this is simply wrong. Nothing Dawntrail's dungeons offer are even remotely close to Extreme levels. They're little more than a pay attention check. Which is a upgrade from "do you have a pulse?" that we've seen in previous expansions. Perhaps the worst offender here is the Halloween mask boss, but that's more to do with how long the stun lasts and XIV's horrendous hit detection than the mechanic itself being difficult. The average player isn't struggling with these dungeons whatsoever. Maybe they die, but it's still manageable without much in the way of a hinderance. Frankly, I think that's a good thing. Even more casual content should have some measure of bite to it, albeit on a lower scale.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

Unfortunately, it isn't. They aren't obligated to kill themselves because you or anyone else died and can no longer participate. Now if everyone is arguing for them to wipe, it gets a bit more debatable, but the GMs will always ere on the side of giving the benefit of doubt. After all, technically, neither tank in the OP's scenario are doing anything outside what their jobs allow. Are they jerks? Absolutely. But you can't force people to kill themselves or demand they do.

Honestly I don't understand why tanks have so much self-sustain when the DPS jobs don't require anything close to that and are expected to still clear everything.

Meanwhile, healers get by despite their crappy damage output because of those heals, tanks should be completing content by leveraging their high defense and enormous health pools.

Because everything in this game is built on coddling the general playerbase and removing as many outright fail states as they can. Tanks having so much sustain means healers aren't required to focus on healing, which the devs seem to think is a very strenuous endeavour. It also means a healer messing up doesn't guarantee a wipe in any content outside the higher end.

Basically, it's insurance that dungeons will rarely see full party wipes.

[Davixxa]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

What do you mean Endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design? Matoya's Relict and Pagl'than on release were harder than any MSQ dungeon Endwalker had to offer. Endwalker's dungeons were genuinely something where I had to turn my brain off to even do them. As a healer, the only time they got fun was when the tank was bad.

Zeromus and Rubicante were mildly difficult on release, the latter mostly because its telegraphs were a bit weird, the former because it was kind of a fast fight. But those are also trials, not dungeons.

I agree we need a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed. That much I do agree with because job diversity is kinda awful at the moment, but I don't think there's a genuine problem with current fight design. 7.2's fights have been awesome. Not so easy as to be a slog, but easy enough that you can intuit them after 1 wipe if you read ability names, use basic pattern recognition, and look around the arena and at what the boss is doing. The only fight I think genuinely might be too hard for casual play is M7.