We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Rithy255]

I don't really see how making Tanks more into Tanks and less into Healers would make them more or less homogenized...

I'd argue that tanks and healers should largely share a similar purpose of support, Tanks are already "tanks" in the fact they tank damage so well because the actual Mitigation value of tanks is absurd that plus sustain no wonder why tanks practically invalidate what little healing healers do.

Tanks aren't really "healers" but Healers aren't really "healers" both are pretty largely defined as support dps in function, as most of their role task is done with a few buttons they interact with the game in a very similar way to dps where every decision to be made should be to Solidify their damage output, as tanks have no reason to do anything other then to damage outside of clicking free defensives, Healers are in the same boat, outside of "gcd healing decision making" which practically doesn't exist if your a average or above healer.

The game is also designed in a way that's so one dimensional that you can't have Tanks that may perform a more supportive role towards the team while other tanks could have other focuses such as being a stronger main tank, good at damage (good at damage would always be hard meta in this sort of game)

I'm speaking from what I want from tanks though I personally lean to more supportive roles in general but will never really vibe with full on "mage-like" healers which is the only thing ff14 offers in terms of healers, So as a tank I actually really love the idea of using abilities that protect my team, through mitigation and healing, I don't find tanks fun if all the do is mitigate self and aggro the boss playing a largely selfish role.

[Alice_Rivers]

Tanks aren't really "healers" but Healers aren't really "healers" both are pretty largely defined as support dps in function

Healers aren't "healers" because there's nothing to heal, in large part because what healing there is to do is done by tanks who de facto ARE healers at this point and getting worse. I don't mind if tanks help with healing, I very much mind when tanks take over healing. You wanna pop a party shield that saves me GCD heal so I can just use an oGCD? Great, you wanna TBN that idiot with three vulns so I don't have to follow up specifically for him and can just cast an AoE heal? Happy days. Multiple benedictions every 25 seconds? Hell, HALF a benediction on a 25s cooldown? NO.

Further to this point, I don't mind tanks having lots and lots of mitigation, particularly if it's as heavily called upon in high end content as people are claiming. Tanks should be hard to kill but they never be impossible to kill, even at the peak of skill, without a healer. If this requires a rebalancing of tank HP and/or damage from enemies then so be it.

[CaptainLagbeard]

I'd argue that tanks and healers should largely share a similar purpose of support

This argument would work if Healers could get a way to do enough enmity to steal aggro from tanks.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Well I agree that Healers aren't healers because theirs nothing to heal, though what would be fun is actual decision making on healers the problem is both tanks and healers have overbloated kits which lead to things like GCD heals vs Damage GCDs not a choice because you can do both, I also fully agree that theirs a line with how much healing tanks can have I've said many times bloodwhetting is a awful cooldown that invalidates healers, warrior also just has a ridiculous amount of sustain beyond that, other tanks are partly guilty of this PLD/GNB but in their case we can effectively nerf mitigation value and sustain value without taking stuff from it's kit, while warrior's defensives/self healing need drastic changes. (I'd argue DRK's in a good spot for self healing).

Tanks being mitigation bots instead of more support oriented is the whole reason why you never heal tanks not because of tank sustain alone, both play a part in making tanks feel more strong I would reduce both and add for tanks to do more then just hold aggro, press your massive mitigation cooldown and healing buttons, I would honestly say current tank design is just miserable and dull for any tank player.

This argument would work if Healers could get a way to do enough enmity to steal aggro from tanks.

Here's the thing enmity is literally managed by one button that has no effort it's almost parallel to how healers basically don't heal but if not more so.

While I don't think tanks should replace healers tanks helping healers do their jobs effectively isn't a bad thing, that being said the way its currently handled is just horrid for both tanks and healers I think the system needs a massive overhaul rather then just removing sustain or mitigation it's really not a simple task of fixing this mess of a trinity system.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Here's the thing enmity is literally managed by one button that has no effort it's almost parallel to how healers basically don't heal but if not more so.

While I don't think tanks should replace healers tanks helping healers do their jobs effectively isn't a bad thing, that being said the way its currently handled is just horrid for both tanks and healers I think the system needs a massive overhaul rather then just removing sustain or mitigation it's really not a simple task of fixing this mess of a trinity system.

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

[Rithy255]

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

[CaptainLagbeard]

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

I know it's not the only issue, but it IS an issue that should be fixed. And the fix is literally as simple as cutting down the sustain on the tanks.

[Rithy255]

I know it's not the only issue, but it IS an issue that should be fixed. And the fix is literally as simple as cutting down the sustain on the tanks.

No and yes.

We should cut down sustain on tanks, but theirs actually more to it then just that, I've said on the post above tanks like warrior need a overhaul in defensive/healing kit, PLD/GNB need to be tuned down, but we don't just remove sustain from tanks and call it a day "healers are fixed"

I will not be happy until both roles have a actual place and have actual decision making, Tanks and Healers both should be treated as support roles and should serve the party in ways that boost the survivability without invalidating one another.

What I don't want is them to up the tanks mitigation value more and just make them boring mitigation bots when we have ZERO enmity management. That is not why I play tank I play tank as a fantasy of "protector of the team".

Mitigation is a large reason why tanks are too strong, fight designs low output is and sustain way too strong, all three need to be tuned with healer kits in mind.

[Supersnow845]

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

Damage needs to be increased across the board but building increased damage on the jenga tower that is current tank sustain is not the right way to go about it

Tank sustain is so overpowered in casual content you basically cannot outscale it without completely overwhelming all but the best healers immediately. There is no functional middle ground where healers of most skill levels can keep up while damage is enough to challenge healers but also challenge tank sustain levels. It just doesn’t work

And I’m going to be a bit mean here but tank sustain is directly affecting the healer role I don’t care if nerfing tank sustain makes tanks feel worse. Tanks shouldn’t have it in the first place. It’s like if healers were better agro controllers than tanks and when tanks asked healers agro to be nerfed healers responded with “but controlling agro feels good don’t ruin my class” even though that feel good action is way way way outside of the classes design paradigm

[Jim5K]

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.