Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Eesh]

Ok so we can agree that MSQ blocks isn't an issue. It's enjoyment while playing the game now; at least for my discussion in particular.

The issue then comes at the extreme subjectivity of enjoyment. You can't 'balance out' enjoyment so the question is what about the game do they find fun? A dual track can effectively make something easier to play and thus create a similar sense of 'I'm actually pulling my weight' but what is easy for one isn't easy for the other, and realistically this dual track isn't going to be modular it's going to be a single trimmed experience. But how do people want that? Because we've established we don't want to exclude them but also not patronize them.

Do we do less aoes? Longer casts/tells? Remove 'toxic' mechanics? Reduce the punishment for failure? One man's accessibility could be another man's condescension. For instance, a dungeon that is so easy it doesn't need healing kind of ruins the healer's fun. But it allows the DPS to thrive more since they're not dying as often.

Edit : I posted this too quick by accident but the core conceit is there.

[Mawlzy]

snip

Great questions that gets us to the nuts-and-bolts of the discussion.

First, let me repeat my endorsement of Alice's points about current dungeon design and the monotony of "dodge the AoE." I think this negatively impacts the enjoyment of players across the skill spectrum, either because they find it hard, or because they find it one-dimensional and dull. The devs seem insistent that degree of difficulty is increased by faster, more overlapping puddles. I believe changing this will help the less-skilled players simply because it will introduce mechanics and designs that they are intrinsically better at. You raise this very point in noting that what is easy for some is hard for others.

As to what players find fun, you are correct that is going to be subjective, but I can share my experiences as a low-skilled PvEer, that are common to FC members who are similarly afflicted.

First, it is not fun to feel a burden to others. I completely accept we all have a personal responsibility to play as best we can, but I think it is underappreciated by strong players that many weak ones do actually put in effort. My main reason for wading into this thread was to push-back against the idea that weaker players are lazy and not trying. I understand it must be baffling to some of you that a player cannot move out of an AoE telegraphed by a massive glowing arm, but when I am reorienting myself from the previous frantic dodge, scanning if any skills have procced, and checking the boss cast bar, I can quite easily stand rooted to the spot. (FWIW this is something that has become an increasing problem as I've aged. I hate that fact, but cannot ignore it.)

So what do I personally enjoy? I like the fact that if I run one of the CT alliance raids as MCH, I'll usually have 2nd or 3rd enmity behind the tank. I won't die. I can actually focus on something approaching a decent rotation. In other words, this content that is simple for others is allowing me the room to do the things that combat in this game is supposed to be about. (It's helped by the fact I'm massively overgeared and can absorb an AoE clip when I do move too slow.)

In dungeons and trials around level 90 and up, I can't do anything like that. I'm not "fighting the boss," I'm trying and usually failing to avoid death. The required speed of cognition and motion is simply too fast. A simplified version of such dungeons would allow me to enjoy them, and even play with other scrubs rather than NPCs, which I greatly prefer. I'm guessing this could be fixed by a "Super-Echo" that made some mistakes less fatal. I'm fine with dying in dungeons, but when it's all I do it's dull. And I don't learn anything. I already know I'm old and slow.

[Carin-Eri]

Great questions that gets us to the nuts-and-bolts of the discussion.

First, let me repeat my endorsement of Alice's points about current dungeon design and the monotony of "dodge the AoE." I think this negatively impacts the enjoyment of players across the skill spectrum, either because they find it hard, or because they find it one-dimensional and dull. The devs seem insistent that degree of difficulty is increased by faster, more overlapping puddles. I believe changing this will help the less-skilled players simply because it will introduce mechanics and designs that they are intrinsically better at. You raise this very point in noting that what is easy for some is hard for others.

As to what players find fun, you are correct that is going to be subjective, but I can share my experiences as a low-skilled PvEer, that are common to FC members who are similarly afflicted.

First, it is not fun to feel a burden to others. I completely accept we all have a personal responsibility to play as best we can, but I think it is underappreciated by strong players that many weak ones do actually put in effort. My main reason for wading into this thread was to push-back against the idea that weaker players are lazy and not trying. I understand it must be baffling to some of you that a player cannot move out of an AoE telegraphed by a massive glowing arm, but when I am reorienting myself from the previous frantic dodge, scanning if any skills have procced, and checking the boss cast bar, I can quite easily stand rooted to the spot. (FWIW this is something that has become an increasing problem as I've aged. I hate that fact, but cannot ignore it.)

So what do I personally enjoy? I like the fact that if I run one of the CT alliance raids as MCH, I'll usually have 2nd or 3rd enmity behind the tank. I won't die. I can actually focus on something approaching a decent rotation. In other words, this content that is simple for others is allowing me the room to do the things that combat in this game is supposed to be about. (It's helped by the fact I'm massively overgeared and can absorb an AoE clip when I do move too slow.)

In dungeons and trials around level 90 and up, I can't do anything like that. I'm not "fighting the boss," I'm trying and usually failing to avoid death. The required speed of cognition and motion is simply too fast. A simplified version of such dungeons would allow me to enjoy them, and even play with other scrubs rather than NPCs, which I greatly prefer. I'm guessing this could be fixed by a "Super-Echo" that made some mistakes less fatal. I'm fine with dying in dungeons, but when it's all I do it's dull. And I don't learn anything. I already know I'm old and slow.

So much this!

Thank you!

[Eesh]

Snipped

Sorry for the super late reply on our conversation earlier. Life stuff. I was reading the post where you relate what you like about the game and I think what kind of irks me the most about it is that it feels less like you want to 'play' the game and more get the 'experience' of being good at the game.

A lot of your enjoyment of CT come from overlevelled gear and an easier job. You 'feel' safer because your gear gives you a safety net and, likewise, you feel stronger because your gear puts you higher in enmity. You also have the buffer of a larger party so your personal responsibility is less and there's more leeway to be picked up. You're on an ARR job so you have 50 levels of button bloat taken from you (this is a double edged sword, since more buttons =/= better). Plus you're citing the only mandatory AR in the roulette so everyone has extreme confidence after running it x amount of times for knowledge.

When I read it all it feels so very...idk. Like you want the game to take pity on you and give you a handicap everywhere; give you the feeling of running overlevelled content that everyone is experienced with? Rather than just in this low lvl synced content. And that's why I said it just comes off as a little condescending to receive this boost. You want the game to tell you "You're strong, you can take that hit. You're a competitive dps! Look at your numbers!" without actually doing the thing that gets you that. And like other people said, this doesn't address any design issues you have with current content. It just makes it feel better because the game has fluffed your numbers a bit to put you in line with the average player.

I have concerns regarding a dual track too. Since the idea of pushing worse players into solo modes or their own corner fragments the community more which is just all around bad for the game as an MMO.

[Mawlzy]

I have concerns regarding a dual track too. Since the idea of pushing worse players into solo modes or their own corner fragments the community more which is just all around bad for the game as an MMO.

I've given up all hope of a united community. Threads like these and other where the contempt for less-skilled players is shown in every other post means I have no desire to intermingle. FF14 is already multiple games beneath a single loading screen and pretending otherwise doesn't alter the fact.

Your narrative of what I really want from PvE may contain some truth, although I have no desire for the game or others to take pity on me. It is certainly true that, when I play with others, I'd rather be useful than a burden. I know I'm not good at PvE in this game. I'm fine with that. There are other elements of the game I'm better at, notably PvP. Besides, I can "feel strong" simply by playing WAR.

The bottom line is that, if I am compelled to engage in this shitty PvE to progress the MSQ, I'd rather it be less annoying than it currently is. And I don't see why you have "concerns" about this, since it has absolutely no impact on you.

[Carin-Eri]

I've given up all hope of a united community. Threads like these and other where the contempt for less-skilled players is shown in every other post means I have no desire to intermingle. FF14 is already multiple games beneath a single loading screen and pretending otherwise doesn't alter the fact.

Your narrative of what I really want from PvE may contain some truth, although I have no desire for the game or others to take pity on me. It is certainly true that, when I play with others, I'd rather be useful than a burden. I know I'm not good at PvE in this game. I'm fine with that. There are other elements of the game I'm better at, notably PvP. Besides, I can "feel strong" simply by playing WAR.

The bottom line is that, if I am compelled to engage in this shitty PvE to progress the MSQ, I'd rather it be less annoying than it currently is. And I don't see why you have "concerns" about this, since it has absolutely no impact on you.

That's a good point actually. I mean, as sub-par as I may be at the game, I'm not aware that I've ever been the sole reason an instance of anything has failed.

Which, as you say, makes me wonder why all these people who find everything "too easy" have a problem with anyone who struggles. Surely they're such epic players, and find normal content so easy, that they can just solo it anyway?

[Mawlzy]

That's a good point actually. I mean, as sub-par as I may be at the game, I'm not aware that I've ever been the sole reason an instance of anything has failed.

Which, as you say, makes me wonder why all these people who find everything "too easy" have a problem with anyone who struggles. Surely they're such epic players, and find normal content so easy, that they can just solo it anyway?

I can see how getting slowed down might be irritating if you're running through the daily roulettes in order to get tomes. Such players are not doing the content because they like it, they do it because it provides something they feel they need, and some like to do it as fast as possible.

But one would hope mentors in particular would relish the chance to mentor when they're grouped with a struggling player.

Honestly I think what a lot of it boils down to is ego investment in a video game. If one's self-worth is determined by proficiency in FFXIV PvE, the effect is magnified by telling less-skilled people how incredibly bad they are.

[Alice_Rivers]

But one would hope mentors in particular would relish the chance to mentor when they're grouped with a struggling player.

I would think a lot of mentors would be all too happy to do what we signed contracts to do, I have the experience though of people who need mentoring either ignoring the offer or telling me where to stick it. When you have a couple of dozen such experiences you tend to just shrug and let people be bad. Not to say I've had NO success, but those are like mount drops, so it's easy to conclude that people have no interest in being good at the game.

[OliverQ]

I can see how getting slowed down might be irritating if you're running through the daily roulettes in order to get tomes. Such players are not doing the content because they like it, they do it because it provides something they feel they need, and some like to do it as fast as possible.

But one would hope mentors in particular would relish the chance to mentor when they're grouped with a struggling player.

Honestly I think what a lot of it boils down to is ego investment in a video game. If one's self-worth is determined by proficiency in FFXIV PvE, the effect is magnified by telling less-skilled people how incredibly bad they are.

Unfortunately, a lot of mentors would like to help more, but we get comments like "You don't pay for my sub" when trying to offer help to struggling players.

[Carin-Eri]

I can see how getting slowed down might be irritating if you're running through the daily roulettes in order to get tomes. Such players are not doing the content because they like it, they do it because it provides something they feel they need, and some like to do it as fast as possible.

But one would hope mentors in particular would relish the chance to mentor when they're grouped with a struggling player.

Honestly I think what a lot of it boils down to is ego investment in a video game. If one's self-worth is determined by proficiency in FFXIV PvE, the effect is magnified by telling less-skilled people how incredibly bad they are.

Agreed.

I'll admit, my goal is usually just to make sure I do my best to pull my weight. And maybe I fail at that sometimes - but it isn't for lack of trying.

Heck - I queued Trial Roulette this morning and 'The Final Day' popped. Was playing as Sage and worked my butt off healing and shielding the team and only 'died' once due to being just a little too slow avoiding Endsinger's planet hurling antics!.
And when the instance was completed both myself and the Scholar were thanked for "great healing" and I, for once, got this:

Which I guess isn't really a big deal - but I'll admit, it did actually mean quite a lot to me!