Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Mawlzy]

No I agree it's not desirable. As a capable player who's had to deal with tanks deciding they can finish fights without others, it's horrible. But my point is that it then becomes a point of pride. You can get through at any skill level but choose not to because it feels bad. To which the conversation then becomes "How much am I willing to concede before it becomes too debasing to carry out?" Because personally, it's also debasing to say "I need the bar to be lowered for me specifically" since it's a clear admission of personal failure. You can't get better. You can't ask for help. You can't do the bare minimum required to get through. The game needs to change for you for that to even be possible. You've already hit the failure state and it's up to a person's ego to tell them what they're willing to compromise on.

Personally, both scenarios are the same. It's someone who has reached a wall they find insurmountable and need a third party to help overcome them. It's just OP wants Square Enix to help them overcome it rather than the community. My initial message was just that we shouldn't say that dungeons like these create insurmountable roadblocks. By all rights you only need to do them once and then after that it becomes optional content. You can get tomes in other places than Expert. And once it's out of Expert it'll go in High Level.

I agree with that. The issue is that for an increasing number of players, required MSQ content is becoming an unwanted irritant rather than an enjoyable part of progressing the story. (This is more true of solo duties, IME, but let's leave that discussion to the quests board.)

I realize some people would be delighted if the bottom X% of players in PvE skill would simply go away (something I suspect is already happening), but for a game with such a multi-faceted, broad-based appeal, this strikes me as a shame. And where does it end? Do we keep moving the bar up so that eventually only Ultimate raiders find the MSQ dungeons interesting? I also think such conversations have sharpened recently because of the severe drought in non-raiding content.

I'll also accept that many players who currently struggle with PvE could improve at it, but you'll never wipe out differences in skill entirely. So in order to accommodate those who are bored of the simplicity of MSQ dungeons, while retaining those who struggle, I've suggested SQEX needs to take a dual-track approach.

FWIW the only roulettes I do are Frontline because I enjoy it and MSQ occasionally when mogtomes is going on. That avoids me inconveniencing others. I don't need the current tomes for anything, and agree with you that the OP's complaint about expert roulette is a self-imposed problem.

[Alice_Rivers]

While I agree that there is a problem with content design, I am among those who would see dungeons be more interesting (and better balanced so that tanks actually have something to tank and healers have something to do... At all) but that would involve the devs making something that isn't "dodge the aoe". It's kind of sad how all combat content in this game since at least ShB distils down to "dodge the aoe", we used to have to press buttons, interact with things... Now it's just new patterns of aoes. The Tuweyawata hole is no different really, only the penalty is instant death which is why I hate it.

A two track approach to "difficulty" does nothing to even abate, much less fix the real problems this game has.

[Mawlzy]

While I agree that there is a problem with content design, I am among those who would see dungeons be more interesting (and better balanced so that tanks actually have something to tank and healers have something to do... At all) but that would involve the devs making something that isn't "dodge the aoe". It's kind of sad how all combat content in this game since at least ShB distils down to "dodge the aoe", we used to have to press buttons, interact with things... Now it's just new patterns of aoes. The Tuweyawata hole is no different really, only the penalty is instant death which is why I hate it.

A two track approach to "difficulty" does nothing to even abate, much less fix the real problems this game has.

Sure. All dual-track does is potentially make those at each end of the skill spectrum less miserable.

But yes, there's a more fundamental issue with the "dodge the AoE" design; it's bloody boring. It's also intertwined with job design.

I'd even suggest many of those who currently struggle with PvE do so precisely because rapid cognition and accurate movement are particularly challenging for them.

Even including multiple wipes, I guess I haven't negotiated the dreaded hole more than half a dozen times. But despite being crap at PvE I've never fallen down it. Maybe my one skill is running around in circles.

[Eesh]

Ok so we can agree that MSQ blocks isn't an issue. It's enjoyment while playing the game now; at least for my discussion in particular.

The issue then comes at the extreme subjectivity of enjoyment. You can't 'balance out' enjoyment so the question is what about the game do they find fun? A dual track can effectively make something easier to play and thus create a similar sense of 'I'm actually pulling my weight' but what is easy for one isn't easy for the other, and realistically this dual track isn't going to be modular it's going to be a single trimmed experience. But how do people want that? Because we've established we don't want to exclude them but also not patronize them.

Do we do less aoes? Longer casts/tells? Remove 'toxic' mechanics? Reduce the punishment for failure? One man's accessibility could be another man's condescension. For instance, a dungeon that is so easy it doesn't need healing kind of ruins the healer's fun. But it allows the DPS to thrive more since they're not dying as often.

Edit : I posted this too quick by accident but the core conceit is there.

[Mawlzy]

snip

Great questions that gets us to the nuts-and-bolts of the discussion.

First, let me repeat my endorsement of Alice's points about current dungeon design and the monotony of "dodge the AoE." I think this negatively impacts the enjoyment of players across the skill spectrum, either because they find it hard, or because they find it one-dimensional and dull. The devs seem insistent that degree of difficulty is increased by faster, more overlapping puddles. I believe changing this will help the less-skilled players simply because it will introduce mechanics and designs that they are intrinsically better at. You raise this very point in noting that what is easy for some is hard for others.

As to what players find fun, you are correct that is going to be subjective, but I can share my experiences as a low-skilled PvEer, that are common to FC members who are similarly afflicted.

First, it is not fun to feel a burden to others. I completely accept we all have a personal responsibility to play as best we can, but I think it is underappreciated by strong players that many weak ones do actually put in effort. My main reason for wading into this thread was to push-back against the idea that weaker players are lazy and not trying. I understand it must be baffling to some of you that a player cannot move out of an AoE telegraphed by a massive glowing arm, but when I am reorienting myself from the previous frantic dodge, scanning if any skills have procced, and checking the boss cast bar, I can quite easily stand rooted to the spot. (FWIW this is something that has become an increasing problem as I've aged. I hate that fact, but cannot ignore it.)

So what do I personally enjoy? I like the fact that if I run one of the CT alliance raids as MCH, I'll usually have 2nd or 3rd enmity behind the tank. I won't die. I can actually focus on something approaching a decent rotation. In other words, this content that is simple for others is allowing me the room to do the things that combat in this game is supposed to be about. (It's helped by the fact I'm massively overgeared and can absorb an AoE clip when I do move too slow.)

In dungeons and trials around level 90 and up, I can't do anything like that. I'm not "fighting the boss," I'm trying and usually failing to avoid death. The required speed of cognition and motion is simply too fast. A simplified version of such dungeons would allow me to enjoy them, and even play with other scrubs rather than NPCs, which I greatly prefer. I'm guessing this could be fixed by a "Super-Echo" that made some mistakes less fatal. I'm fine with dying in dungeons, but when it's all I do it's dull. And I don't learn anything. I already know I'm old and slow.

[Carin-Eri]

Great questions that gets us to the nuts-and-bolts of the discussion.

First, let me repeat my endorsement of Alice's points about current dungeon design and the monotony of "dodge the AoE." I think this negatively impacts the enjoyment of players across the skill spectrum, either because they find it hard, or because they find it one-dimensional and dull. The devs seem insistent that degree of difficulty is increased by faster, more overlapping puddles. I believe changing this will help the less-skilled players simply because it will introduce mechanics and designs that they are intrinsically better at. You raise this very point in noting that what is easy for some is hard for others.

As to what players find fun, you are correct that is going to be subjective, but I can share my experiences as a low-skilled PvEer, that are common to FC members who are similarly afflicted.

First, it is not fun to feel a burden to others. I completely accept we all have a personal responsibility to play as best we can, but I think it is underappreciated by strong players that many weak ones do actually put in effort. My main reason for wading into this thread was to push-back against the idea that weaker players are lazy and not trying. I understand it must be baffling to some of you that a player cannot move out of an AoE telegraphed by a massive glowing arm, but when I am reorienting myself from the previous frantic dodge, scanning if any skills have procced, and checking the boss cast bar, I can quite easily stand rooted to the spot. (FWIW this is something that has become an increasing problem as I've aged. I hate that fact, but cannot ignore it.)

So what do I personally enjoy? I like the fact that if I run one of the CT alliance raids as MCH, I'll usually have 2nd or 3rd enmity behind the tank. I won't die. I can actually focus on something approaching a decent rotation. In other words, this content that is simple for others is allowing me the room to do the things that combat in this game is supposed to be about. (It's helped by the fact I'm massively overgeared and can absorb an AoE clip when I do move too slow.)

In dungeons and trials around level 90 and up, I can't do anything like that. I'm not "fighting the boss," I'm trying and usually failing to avoid death. The required speed of cognition and motion is simply too fast. A simplified version of such dungeons would allow me to enjoy them, and even play with other scrubs rather than NPCs, which I greatly prefer. I'm guessing this could be fixed by a "Super-Echo" that made some mistakes less fatal. I'm fine with dying in dungeons, but when it's all I do it's dull. And I don't learn anything. I already know I'm old and slow.

So much this!

Thank you!

[Carin-Eri]

Haven't been able to use side buttons since I broke my wrist a few years ago. But I agree, those that can should take advantage of such hardware.

I actually own that mouse.

That aside, I have to admit - whilst I do intend to attempt to get my head around keybinds... my primary issue wasn't that. Yes, 'clicking' is extremely sub-optimal and is likely affecting my performance to a degree. I know that. However, whilst sub-optimal, I don't think I was quite 100% useless - I don't feel that being a 'clicker' is my primary issue.

Again, it comes back to my overall performance. Whether I click or keybind, I'd likely still be dying to the same mechanics I either miss or react too slowly to.

[Xapapetsu]

I'll put this as nicely as I can, clearing casual content isn't a matter of if it's hard or not. No casual content is hard, people just want to shut their brain off when they play the game. This is a lvl 100 dungeon, I don't think asking players to do the basics of stand out of fire and let mechanic resolve is asking too much. There's no enrage, the time limit I believe is 90 minutes and having a single good tank or healer can pretty much trivialize the content since they can solo this content with how much they have in their kit. Elden ring starts by fighting the soldier of godrick should all enemies be that easy because the playerbase doesn't want to learn how to play the game? The argument that easy content needs to be easier because people never learned how to play the game isn't a good one and it's very bad for the future of the game and it's bad for the players because the gap between normal, extreme, savage and ultimate will continue to grow. It's already a large enough gap between normal and extreme we don't need it to grow larger.

[Mawlzy]

I'll put this as nicely as I can, clearing casual content isn't a matter of if it's hard or not. No casual content is hard, people just want to shut their brain off when they play the game. This is a lvl 100 dungeon, I don't think asking players to do the basics of stand out of fire and let mechanic resolve is asking too much. There's no enrage, the time limit I believe is 90 minutes and having a single good tank or healer can pretty much trivialize the content since they can solo this content with how much they have in their kit. Elden ring starts by fighting the soldier of godrick should all enemies be that easy because the playerbase doesn't want to learn how to play the game? The argument that easy content needs to be easier because people never learned how to play the game isn't a good one and it's very bad for the future of the game and it's bad for the players because the gap between normal, extreme, savage and ultimate will continue to grow. It's already a large enough gap between normal and extreme we don't need it to grow larger.

And you know this how?

[Arohk]

And you know this how?

Yesterday i did Leveling roulette, i got the outpost.

The enemies and first boss died suspiciously slow, so i observed what the black mage was doing and observed that he was only casting fire 1 and fire 3 like you do on lvl 50, he also switched back to ice while still having half of his MP.
When i told him he is casting the wrong spells and maybe should look up how to play black mage, the response was:

"It is just a dungeon, who cares"
He then wanted to tell me that i play Warrior wrong and if he should explain how to do it right.
The Open minded person i am, i said, "sure go ahead".
"Nah it is just a dungeon, doesnt matter" he said..

Well at the last boss i must have accidentaly turned off my tank stance and shirked him, so he died to a tankbuster, which got him a little mad, but i said i "It is just a dungeon, mistakes happen"

after all i don't know how to play Warrior.