Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

[Mesarthim]

Case and point. There's all of the buzzwords. Elitism.

Enjoy being bitter. I'm out. Waste of time.

[Raenra]

Don't bother doing Expert Dungeon roulette in DT, used to do it every day.
The only lev100 dungeon I enjoy is the cactus one.
If wondrous tails asks for it, I'll queue that one specifically.

[Valence]

To be honest I know a lot of clickers that do perform as well as the best raiders, and I'm pretty sure there is some in pvp ranked as well. It is however probably that they still do use direction keys on their keyboard to move while clicking their abilities.
Point being, UI is something extremely personal and if clicking is something that clicks with you (pun intended), then it can be perfectly viable as long as you're able to move through another device at the same time. If clicking however is something that you feel is a limiting factor for you, then you should definitely consider switching to keybinds/controller/something else.

[Arohk]

To be honest I know a lot of clickers that do perform as well as the best raiders, and I'm pretty sure there is some in pvp ranked as well. It is however probably that they still do use direction keys on their keyboard to move while clicking their abilities.
Point being, UI is something extremely personal and if clicking is something that clicks with you (pun intended), then it can be perfectly viable as long as you're able to move through another device at the same time. If clicking however is something that you feel is a limiting factor for you, then you should definitely consider switching to keybinds/controller/something else.

You are talking about people that already perfom at a high level, they can tell you they are clickers, but do you really know how they play? There is certainly a difference between clicking some abilities that you don't use that often, or clicking your entire rotation, that must be so exhausting i can't even imagine that.

I highly doubt a high end player clicks all his stuff, they most likey use a mix of some keybinds for their core skills and click the rest like most people do.
I had one guy in my static raid in shadowbringers that clicked most of his stuff, he so often failed at mechanics where he had to move quickly it was very noticable, and when i found out he was clicking, it clicked with me why he made so many mistakes.

Even when it is viable, we are not talking about the top endgame players than can do it, but the low end casuals that struggle with easy & normal stuff because of it.

[Mawlzy]

You are talking about people that already perfom at a high level, they can tell you they are clickers, but do you really know how they play? There is certainly a difference between clicking some abilities that you don't use that often, or clicking your entire rotation, that must be so exhausting i can't even imagine that.

I highly doubt a high end player clicks all his stuff, they most likey use a mix of some keybinds for their core skills and click the rest like most people do.
I had one guy in my static raid in shadowbringers that clicked most of his stuff, he so often failed at mechanics where he had to move quickly it was very noticable, and when i found out he was clicking, it clicked with me why he made so many mistakes.

Even when it is viable, we are not talking about the top endgame players than can do it, but the low end casuals that struggle with easy & normal stuff because of it.

I think the good news is that some progress in understanding has been made in this thread.

There seems to be an acknowledgment that some players who struggle are trying to play the game well, but their limitations are being produced by UI and HUD lay-out. This doesn't address the fact people have different cognitive and physical abilities, but it's a start.

I hope moving forward we can cease assuming such players are simply lazy and not trying.

I still think dual-track difficulty in MSQ content has considerable merit, however, since it would provide high-end raiders with a more pleasurable experience when they're grinding normal content for tomes.

Edited to add:

Have been lurking the forums a bit now and this is the first post that's made me make the account to reply.

I think one of the first corrections I want to make to people is that Trusts is not the 'Easy' mode of the game. It's actually playing with others. Yes you can sit in dungeons and do nothing and Trusts will get you through. But if you play with people you don't even need to be alive when the fight is over to get your clear. A good healer can prolong a bad player's life span way better than Trusts and even then you can be on the floor and still get that MSQ progression. You'll never be gated so long as there's at least one or two people good enough to finish the dungeon while you're on the floor. Whether this is good or bad conceptually is another topic, but it's a point I believe should negate the 'These people shouldn't be gated from MSQ' argument.

This is, of course, true. The question then is whether getting carried through dungeons is desirable. I'd suggest it is not for both the struggling players and those with the skill to carry them.

[Eesh]

This is, of course, true. The question then is whether getting carried through dungeons is desirable. I'd suggest it is not for both the struggling players and those with the skill to carry them.

No I agree it's not desirable. As a capable player who's had to deal with tanks deciding they can finish fights without others, it's horrible. But my point is that it then becomes a point of pride. You can get through at any skill level but choose not to because it feels bad. To which the conversation then becomes "How much am I willing to concede before it becomes too debasing to carry out?" Because personally, it's also debasing to say "I need the bar to be lowered for me specifically" since it's a clear admission of personal failure. You can't get better. You can't ask for help. You can't do the bare minimum required to get through. The game needs to change for you for that to even be possible. You've already hit the failure state and it's up to a person's ego to tell them what they're willing to compromise on.

Personally, both scenarios are the same. It's someone who has reached a wall they find insurmountable and need a third party to help overcome them. It's just OP wants Square Enix to help them overcome it rather than the community. My initial message was just that we shouldn't say that dungeons like these create insurmountable roadblocks. By all rights you only need to do them once and then after that it becomes optional content. You can get tomes in other places than Expert. And once it's out of Expert it'll go in High Level.

[Mawlzy]

No I agree it's not desirable. As a capable player who's had to deal with tanks deciding they can finish fights without others, it's horrible. But my point is that it then becomes a point of pride. You can get through at any skill level but choose not to because it feels bad. To which the conversation then becomes "How much am I willing to concede before it becomes too debasing to carry out?" Because personally, it's also debasing to say "I need the bar to be lowered for me specifically" since it's a clear admission of personal failure. You can't get better. You can't ask for help. You can't do the bare minimum required to get through. The game needs to change for you for that to even be possible. You've already hit the failure state and it's up to a person's ego to tell them what they're willing to compromise on.

Personally, both scenarios are the same. It's someone who has reached a wall they find insurmountable and need a third party to help overcome them. It's just OP wants Square Enix to help them overcome it rather than the community. My initial message was just that we shouldn't say that dungeons like these create insurmountable roadblocks. By all rights you only need to do them once and then after that it becomes optional content. You can get tomes in other places than Expert. And once it's out of Expert it'll go in High Level.

I agree with that. The issue is that for an increasing number of players, required MSQ content is becoming an unwanted irritant rather than an enjoyable part of progressing the story. (This is more true of solo duties, IME, but let's leave that discussion to the quests board.)

I realize some people would be delighted if the bottom X% of players in PvE skill would simply go away (something I suspect is already happening), but for a game with such a multi-faceted, broad-based appeal, this strikes me as a shame. And where does it end? Do we keep moving the bar up so that eventually only Ultimate raiders find the MSQ dungeons interesting? I also think such conversations have sharpened recently because of the severe drought in non-raiding content.

I'll also accept that many players who currently struggle with PvE could improve at it, but you'll never wipe out differences in skill entirely. So in order to accommodate those who are bored of the simplicity of MSQ dungeons, while retaining those who struggle, I've suggested SQEX needs to take a dual-track approach.

FWIW the only roulettes I do are Frontline because I enjoy it and MSQ occasionally when mogtomes is going on. That avoids me inconveniencing others. I don't need the current tomes for anything, and agree with you that the OP's complaint about expert roulette is a self-imposed problem.

[Eesh]

Have been lurking the forums a bit now and this is the first post that's made me make the account to reply.

I think one of the first corrections I want to make to people is that Trusts is not the 'Easy' mode of the game. It's actually playing with others. Yes you can sit in dungeons and do nothing and Trusts will get you through. But if you play with people you don't even need to be alive when the fight is over to get your clear. A good healer can prolong a bad player's life span way better than Trusts and even then you can be on the floor and still get that MSQ progression. You'll never be gated so long as there's at least one or two people good enough to finish the dungeon while you're on the floor. Whether this is good or bad conceptually is another topic, but it's a point I believe should negate the 'These people shouldn't be gated from MSQ' argument.

If the response to that is then "These people shouldn't have to be on the floor to finish the fight" then I agree! They shouldn't. But this isn't a gameplay option at the point people have been arguing but rather a pure accessibility option. Since, let's consider what a person has to be unable to do to actually be completely unable to progress the MSQ. They need to:

- Lack the Hand-Eye Coordination to react in time to telegraphed atacks.
- Be unable to retain new information after wiping. (Fights are scripted, so it's possible to know what's going to happen before it happens.)
- Fail to memorize core fight mechanics (stack, spreds, proximity...etc)
- Be unwilling to focus exclusively on survival instead of multitasking damage and dodging.
- Be unwilling to play a new job that may be easier. (This is where I put the healers that dies instantly).
- Be unable to work with teammates or communicate their need for assistance.

I could brainstorm more but my point here is that the bar to genuine inability to progress is so low that I cannot fathom it being anything less than a percent of a percent and, as much as I hate to say, to some extent self inflicted via inflexibility. I just cannot see how this is an insurmountable wall.

And, to drop niceties for a second. The first time I saw this thread I couldn't help but wonder what people have been doing to get to Dawntrail and not have picked up on some basic skills expected of them. By that point hundreds of hours should have been achieved.

[Alice_Rivers]

I honestly can't imagine trying to play this game with a mouse. I have all 36 slots on three bars and another two or three on the fourth bar mapped to my numberpad, my pet controls and limit break are on my left hand. I do agree with the idea of using a controller if you struggle with keybinds, from what I've seen and been told the controller setup in this game is really good.

[JadeCurtiss]

This dungeon was basically an expert dungeon.

Is that why it's in the EXPERT DUNGEON roulette?

The game has bots that will do mechanics for you. If someone can't put the bare minimum amount of thought into understanding what only they have to do in a dungeon then they should play something else is my feeling.

Putting that aside my bias for a moment, what is a solution? The game has a mechanic it has used in the past called Thrice Come Ruin. That is stacking debuff that will result in death if enough mechanics are failed. Instead of taking enough damage to die some mechanics give this debuff. So you get 2 or 3 chances to get it right before punishment. And there does need to be punishment. A heavy DOT maybe if death is too severe.

I still believe we are just starting to pull back from the effortless dungeons of EW and I think people need to acclimate to a new baseline before they cry about it.