FRU has been cleared without Tanks!

[SongOfTheWind]

I think the moral is you can do content with any comp you like

The moral is the trinity in this game is very broken. It’s good to have challenges and variations of solutions. It stops being good when there is an artificially created system which people do not see as required or justified. You see such runs and don’t think to repeat? I hear people wishing that DF (yeah, not PF) will allow tank/3 dps composition as a no joke. You think it won’t be used by people if it gets introduced by the devs based on the current climate?

[Absurdity]

Now all we need is a DPSless run. So we can be full circle.

That was really only possible in Heavensward when tank DPS was high enough to beat enrage timers on current content.
So very unlikely to happen until they remove the nerf that tanks have in their damage calculations since Shadowbringers.

And let's be honest, that would be the straw that finally breaks the camel's back.
Dps players are the vast majority of the population and the "favourite child" of the job designers.

If they could be replaced by a tank, which is not only easier to play but allows for a lot more mistakes during prog, and you could still comfortably meet the DPS checks then we would have a massive shitstorm on our hands and they would finally have to acknowledge the problem.

[Valence]

Aggro was barely a role mechanic. Well, at least not since level 30 / 40 when you got your tank stance. There was barely any aggro problems when you did 1 or maybe 2 aggro combos and then dropped the stance for the rest of the fight.

This was only true because of Shadewalker, which could have been corrected. Meanwhile in casual content it wasn't unusual to have aggro shenanigans happen.

[Mikey_R]

So yes in both runs it’s literally

“Do you meet the minimum requirements to exclude this role to make this run easier. If yes exclude this role for pure benefit”

The only benefit to not excluding the healer comes from if you don’t meet the minimum competency; which extreme pre excludes for

If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.

But having a healer is a detriment though. A pretty big one.

Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

[Supersnow845]

If you want to reduce it down to that, then you can, as long as you realise that every situation is different based on many factors, which means you cannot just conflate 2 subjects and say they are the same. That is literally the main take away from this whole thing.



Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

[Valence]

Stop being hyperbolic, a healer in DF is not a detriment.

Ah! So we're back full circle to the enforced roles in DF vs PF argument. And you can bet if expert was strictly run in PF, you'd suddenly see an interesting shift in meta.
And if your point is to say that some would be left behind after such a shift, then I'd agree, a small amount of the playerbase definitely would, like a small amount was left behind when double pulling / mass pulling became the enforced norm over time. if you want to compare this to Ramuh Ex where "everybody would be able to tank as SMN, easier than tanks", sure, but then it's comparing apples to oranges for the aforementioned reason that we're talking about extreme trials, which is a different audience that filters a different subset of the playerbase, and has a way higher skill floor, negating the problem of the players being left behind by the meta to begin with.

[BelegErkhten]

Anyway, XIV is baby town frolics gameplay wise since SHB, so it doesn't surprise me or anyone, I don't think.

The real Blackpill is knowing that it still wasn't actually hard before then either, but people gaslit themselves into thinking the game was hard because they had no idea what they were doing. "Game was harder in Hevansward" because you had people who would play PLD and never press anything other than Rage of Halone, like no shit the game is harder when you have people with no idea how to play their job and even less desire to learn how to do so.

[Daralii]

The real Blackpill is knowing that it still wasn't actually hard before then either, but people gaslit themselves into thinking the game was hard because they had no idea what they were doing. "Game was harder in Hevansward" because you had people who would play PLD and never press anything other than Rage of Halone, like no shit the game is harder when you have people with no idea how to play their job and even less desire to learn how to do so.

Something like managing Blood of the Dragon on DRG was absolutely more difficult than what it's like now.

[Mikey_R]

If you don’t think a healer in DF is a detriment then you aren’t a good enough tank to exclude the healer………which is our entire point. If you are a good enough tank then yes the healer is a detriment

This isn't about me, this is about the general community, who, in DF, can have a wide range of skill levels. Having a healer is just safer when going into that environment.

Ah! So we're back full circle to the enforced roles in DF vs PF argument. And you can bet if expert was strictly run in PF, you'd suddenly see an interesting shift in meta.

Probably, yes and we can have that discussion when it happens as it shows a clear switch in how the game is being played by the community.

And if your point is to say that some would be left behind after such a shift, then I'd agree, a small amount of the playerbase definitely would, like a small amount was left behind when double pulling / mass pulling became the enforced norm over time. if you want to compare this to Ramuh Ex where "everybody would be able to tank as SMN, easier than tanks", sure, but then it's comparing apples to oranges for the aforementioned reason that we're talking about extreme trials, which is a different audience that filters a different subset of the playerbase, and has a way higher skill floor, negating the problem of the players being left behind by the meta to begin with.

Yes, that has been my point the entire time, the situations are different, therefore need to be considered differently, in the same way you cannot compare tank struggles to healer struggles, or healer struggles in EX/Savage etc. compared to content run in the DF (at least in the English community). Even when talking about tanks in dungeons, there is even a discussion to be had between them, mainly the way WAR can very effectively get through a dungeon on it's own, but if you have a DRK? It is likely impossible. Another reason why having a healer in DF is not a detriment.