#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Supersnow845]

I see I see. Well we like the same things as least.

Do you also hate Aetherflow? If not, what makes you hate Addersgall specifically? Not being critical just curious.

I am curious too about the transplantation of your heal plan. Holos also has a heal, did you not utilize the heal, was it not needed? Did you hit something else to replace it, or did your co-healer have to adjust? Did you use Pnuema and Panhaima? What did those transfer as?

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

[YarnMage48]

That’s a seperate argument. SGE has well designed naming conventions for its skills for their connections to the origin of the medical field (side note I’m a doctor so you don’t have to explain to me the meaning of SGE’s names. Not saying that in a rude way just that I’m aware) but naming design doesn’t mean near anything when it doesn’t really translate into meaningful design expression

Plus when you really break down SGE’s names a lot of them don’t make a lot of sense anyway. “Haima” means blood as a representation of the 4 humours theory (of which phlegma for phlegm is another though black and yellow bile are not represented) but blood has nothing to do with stacking shields and then “panhaima” means “the blood of the collective” which doesn’t make any more sense than haima other than “pan” being a shorthand to represent everything within a group. Holos means “whole” which again………mitigation, not really seeing the contention. Even your example of kardia and kardion being a short hand for “heart to heart connection” is it not strange a heart to heart is only activated by doing damage.

If the only argument for why physis/philosophia is not pankardia is naming conventions then that’s a pretty flimsy argument. The design of the class should come first and then the names from there.

As see that's an interesting take. Someone else who chimed in before had the opposite opinion, that lore should drive the design. To them that was a big part of maintaining class identity. I would agree that lore should indeed play a part in design, and that it would help with making the classes more distinct. I mean the symbolism will always break down at some point but at the very least I don't think it should be completely cast aside when bringing in new skills.

[YarnMage48]

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

[YarnMage48]

Every expansion, SE makes it easier for all the healers to be 'Reactive'. But this comes at the cost of making the so-called Proactive healers, more Reactive too, so they end up with the potential to be Proactive and Reactive, and the originally-Reactive healers end up being... still just 'Reactive'

Well I'm glad you were able to salvage a clear. But seriously, one anecdotal example of a very specific situation, with literally no mention of what class the other healer was and how they contributed, only proves that you and your co-healer did a good job of reacting to that situation. Every healer will run out of resources eventually. How long that takes is more dependent on how well you can utilize the kit than the kit itself.

The labels proactive and reactive, just like barrier and pure healer, are referring to overall design. You can be proactive, reactive, shield, and direct heal with all of them.

I've gotten into this topic before but a large part of this is so that any healer class, or pair of healer classes, can go into any content and handle the healing. But what this does lead to is toolkits that are flexible, rather than rigidly centered around the functional design idea.

[Supersnow845]

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

They are lacking in nuance because they are COPIES, I don’t know how to make this any clearer. The skills were added to SCH’s kit over time to fulfil particular niches then SGE just dumped them in their kit with almost nothing changed for no reason than to fill out its kit. Let me ask you this. Why does SGE need the skills SCH learned overtime to fill out its kit rather than them actually introducing unique skills (and tying them to SGE’s actual unique systems). Why when they made addersgall did they go

1) direct heal 600 potency no CD check
2) 400 potency AOE direct heal 30 second CD check
3) 10% mitigation bubble that gets a 550 potency regen at 78 30 second CD check
4) single target higher potency than 1) with additional effect 45 second CD check
5) extra gauge generator on a long CD check
6) 3 per minute + extra gauge generator check

Like they didn’t even TRY to pretend they didn’t just rip off aetherflow. And this extends to other skills as well. Like soteria, it’s SGE’s answer to aetherpact, but aetherpact wasn’t there to be a heal channeller of a higher potency than embrace, it was a replacement for the fact that embrace used to be targeted. So soteria has completely missed the point of what aetherpact exists Is it really so strange to fondly remember the original and hate the blatant rip off? Mana regen on addersgall feels bad because it removes the nuance of SCH’s cost based system. Aetherflow actions cost something you have to actively have a reason to want to press them. SGE lacks that. Because pressing them for no other reason than to put them on CD confers a benefit……namely mana regen. It’s the same problem as the modern lily system. You shouldn’t be rewarded for wasting your healing. Now personally I preferred when regen was tied to energy drain not aetherflow but regardless a system designed to confer benefits to wasting your healing is bad because the mana regen is never the difference on whether you throw out a heal or not……unless your intention is only the regen and the healing is useless

These were week 2 clears on both classes and yes the skills aren’t identical but like I said, the fact that the mit plan remotely works is the problem. Critdom+blessing equals pnuema, or expedient+blessing equals holos, whispering dawn+illumination equals physis. In a savage mit plan these tiny differences in nuance make little to no difference. SCH just splits a lot of its buttons functions while SGE combines them but they lead to the same end result

[YarnMage48]

snip

So what you are really saying is that Scholar is better because it came first. And look mate, you don't need to be condescending by using all caps. The issue is that you weren't being clear. Addersgall lacks nuance? No. If they are copies then they have the same amount of nuance. You don't like addersgall because it is a copy of aetherflow. OK. We can go from there.

The idea that Aetherflow is better because it came first is simply weak. The best airplane isn't first one to ever be made. You can hate Sage because so much is based off Scholar. That's fine for a personal grievance. But Sage being based off of a good system doesn't mean that it's worse than scholar. They can go different directions with the same base model and end with two different classes. In fact, that's exactly how we ended up with Scholar and Summoner. They both start as Arcanists, and the model branches off from there.

As you said, it took time for them to fill out Scholar and figure out how all of its skills needed to work. They then took a model that they knew worked, and started working on morphing it into a new model. It's not all the way there yet but if they work a little at a time, they'll get there. I'd much prefer that to when they reinvented the wheel, and have since spent every future expansion trying to bring AST into a good, balanced state.

Regarding one of the major deviations from Scholar, namely, the regeneration of mana through the use of Addersgall stacks, I think I understand your points. The lack of proper punctuation has made things a little hard to parse, but I think I follow. It seems that you dislike that, with both WHM and SGE, you might end up using healing skills not for the healing, but for the accumulation of a resource. Rather than making mana regen based on the accumulation of addersgall, we could instead fix this by having something to use it on other than healing. I'd like that a lot. But at the end of the day, I'm not overly hung up on having to burn a stack of addersgall for mana, if that even happens. It can only happen where I'm in an encounter long enough for Lucid Dreaming to not cover DPS mana usage while also somehow not encountering any need to heal that entire time. That's few and far between.

Rather than your initial claim that you just transferred the heal plan 1 to 1 and it worked exactly the same, you had to work out a combination of skills from Scholar to make the same effect that Sage has. it still worked but what we've learned is that the reality was different from your initial claim. You can make them work they same if you like, but they don't actually work exactly the same.

[Supersnow845]

(Side note I’m not being condescending using Caps, it’s because it’s annoying to embolden text on mobile)

I never mentioned SGE being weaker than SCH in this particular comment. You asked me why addersgall lacks nuance compared to aetherflow and why I didn’t like addersgall and I told you. They didn’t “go in different directions” with the two classes they dumped the same skills on the new healer that you use in the same situation and left it at that. Old SMN and old SCH worked because they while they shared the core aspects of their damage kit they were diversified by the fact that SMN had its Bahamut magic forming the core of its burst while SCH had fairy control. You might say “well SCH and SGE are like that because the aetherflow/addersgall are the same and then they branch from there. Except kardia and the fairy are the same, the GCD healing options are the same, panhaima and seraph are the same, physis and whispering dawn are the same. There is no diversity there, SGE just copied SCH and in my eyes it’s a very valid complaint that the “new class” didn’t do anything unique and just copied SCH. Would it be okay if the new physical ranged next expansion was a 3 part combo with a reverse 3 part combo and a freeform burst builder but the burst was 3% instead of 5% and the “big nuke” gave a shield instead of a heal because “PCT is a good design and they wanted to use it as a foundation”

SCH doesn’t “win” because it was first. SCH wins because its kit was organically designed around its needs as the game developed and retains depth induced by choice. SGE copies SCH without understand why SCH is the way it is and with all of SCH’s nuance ripped out of it to make it “flow” better and then with additions made in DT seems to have no idea what to do with SGE. Like I despise seraphism but I can at least point to the fact that Seraphism covers SCH’s two age old weaknesses- namely healing on the move and sustained pure healing. WHAT does philosophia add to SGE? Like genuinely I cannot think of a niche philosophia fills. If they wanted “pankardia” for flavour then 1) they failed at making it actually pankardia and 2) in a world pankardia exists in physis is useless as a separate skill but since physis exists philosophia just comes off as a second charge of physis on 3 times the CD. What gives anyone confidence in the design of a class that don’t its first expansion copying SCH and its second introducing a skill that doesn’t have a niche

And the way you’ve responded to my point about the mit plan just seems to show you are desperate to sell pointless “difference” as meaningful difference. Physis and whispering dawn fill exactly the same niche, same as expedience and holos. Savage doesn’t ask for you to draw out the sort of use that makes holos heal actually meaningfully useful (not saying it’s useless but if you are pressing it you are pressing it for the mitigation) so the plans function the same. You can’t do this with AST and WHM. If your heal plan on WHM says rapture what do you press on AST? You don’t have an equivalent because their heal kits are different. On SGE/SCH I know exactly what heal/mitigation maps to what and so I can use the same mitigation plan. I went from SCH to SGE and when I pressed expedient I pressed holos, so I was blatantly wasting holos’s heal and had zero problems. On week 2. I also went from critdom to pnuema so I never used Zoe on pnuema, again I had no problems. Week 2. Nothing in 14’s healing design asks enough of the healers to make these tiny differences meaningful AND even if it did as I’ve shown the two have skills that fill those tiny differences anyway just by pressing a different button. So even if you want to argue that the mitigation of holos and expedience is m mindfully different in a mit plan because holos also has a heal which you’ll waste 99% of the time anyway I can just use blessing to cover that heal achieving the same thing anyway. Which AST and WHM don’t have

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Ah but you are completely incorrect.

... its actually 60p/min, Dosis is 370p nowadays. Over the course of a 12min enocunter, that's (slightly less than) two whole Dosis casts you'd lose! /s

On the topic of it though, if they really had to make the two DOTs not stack for whatever reason, wouldn't it feel so much better if, instead of 40p for 30s, E.Dyskrasia applied the regular E.Dosis DOT (75p per tick), but for 15s? You wouldn't ever use it in single target, still (due to it overwriting), but it'd at least be worth pressing it in more AOE pulls, as it stands I find it hard to find a trash pack that actually lives for 30s

T-That's a checkmate... how will I ever recover from this...?! /j

Jokes aside, regardless whether it's a gain, loss, or neutral in ST situations, I still think the nail on the coffin is the inability to stack both DoTs. If it's a gain, people can try to optimize it they want to. The gain is so miniscule that ignoring the optimization probably ain't going to be comparable to placing 1 extra Phlegma charge outside buff window. If it's a neutral, people can use it as a potential movement tool so long target remains within 5y radius from the SGE. Same if it's a loss except it'll be on priority above 4th Toxikons. It will still shine the best in trash pulls because people wouldn't have to worry to overwrite their E.Dosis IIIs. It's not much. But it's way better than current iteration.

They had 1 expansion to develop SGE into something greater, and they squandered it. HMMMMMMM I wonder what else in the role that suffers similarly? Ah yes, Lily gauge. The last time it was developed any meaningfully was in ShB. People were asking for any semblance of utilities, preferably attached to the lily system. What do we get instead? EW changes neutered the nuance and didn't even gave the system anything new while at the same time adding Lily insignia to Holy III and Lilybell... the two actions that have absolutely no bearing toward Lily Gauge itself... for what exactly (ngl I felt insulted)? Is that the most they're willing to put effort into the job? What a surprise, fast forward to DT SGE is treated similarly. Lily gauge, who? Idk her.

Will they get better? I don't know, I can't cast Divination IRL. But based on their track record, I'm pessimistic.

[Azurarok]

I'd much prefer that to when they reinvented the wheel, and have since spent every future expansion trying to bring AST into a good, balanced state.

The thing they keep reinventing are the cards, which are primarily dps tools. The healing kit design's been pretty static since ShB, maybe earlier than that.

In fact, it was so good in their eyes they bent the other healers to its oGCD healing design in EW, which has been one of the biggest offenders in the role's homogenization.

[BunnyQueen]

Healers need to be able to heal 60% of the time in dungeons, rn they heal less then 5%, even less when i am on warrior. They need to fix dungeons.