Frontlines: There should not be ANY rewards for 2nd or 3rd place

[IceEyes]

To be honest in last time i see a lot of weird propositions about FLs. I mean, they have some sense, but, usually OPs propose very radical methods to fix the "problems".

Why we just cant agrees with fact ff14 not PvP game, and as i know never was. Its a bit weird expect a lot of nice PvP content in game, what isnt target audience of the game.

FF14 offers quite a lot of equality. You fight with the same number of players. You have fixed damage and a supply of resources equal to your opponents.

I just want to remind you that in PvP-oriented games, especially when it comes to large-scale events, all these factors are usually not taken into account. You can fight outnumbered, with worse equipment, in a worse position and without a full set of buffs and resources. And yet, you won't find widespread complaints that the experience of these players is terrible.

PvP by default implies some kind of inequality. Someone will always be better and someone worse.
Any sanctions for bad play in FF14 are a bad idea, simply because the target audience is casuals.
Coming into this game, going to roulette, especially in FL, you have already agreed by default that you probably will not find yourself in the best team of players.

Do many things in FL irritate me? Certainly. But pvp players must be aware that it is stupid to expect anything more from the players. Need to change our (player base) mentality and thinking towards this regime. And this is almost impossible.

A striking example of such experience is today Onsal. Yellow team just obtained free three nodes and afking around it and getting free 300+ points without pvp, when our team fighting vs red all this time. None of the lagging teams decided to concede, and this continued until the triangle disappeared. As a monk i just /huming first 5 minutes of the match, beacuse, what i should to do? Call in ally chat? Blame on them? Team anyway didnt react. The players had already consciously decided to give the round to yellow (which later happened).

The developer is well aware of such situations and still leaves everything as is. We don't get more complex and interesting maps that reward PvP specifically. All we really can do, this is form all our criticism and try to distribute our culture and thought. But, this can be very demotivation, beacuse: "lol shut up, no one care about that, we are here for the exp".

[Archeron]

Why we just cant agrees with fact ff14 not PvP game, and as i know never was. Its a bit weird expect a lot of nice PvP content in game, what isnt target audience of the game.

Why is it weird to expect Square Enix to put nice content into their billion dollar game? I mean honestly can ANYONE explain this logic? Just because it's not the focus for this game doesn't mean it's okay to add content to the game that sucks, and then neglect it for six months or more at a time. There is nothing radical about these solutions. These are actual solutions implemented by other games that have added PvP content to an otherwise PvE focused game. Where the PvP is actually fun, and retains a dedicated audience. It's not like there are other MMORPG's on the market that have figured out how to make enjoyable PvP for years at this point.

A striking example of such experience is today Onsal. Yellow team just obtained free three nodes and afking around it and getting free 300+ points without pvp, when our team fighting vs red all this time. None of the lagging teams decided to concede, and this continued until the triangle disappeared. As a monk i just /huming first 5 minutes of the match, beacuse, what i should to do? Call in ally chat? Blame on them? Team anyway didnt react. The players had already consciously decided to give the round to yellow (which later happened).

You have openly admitted yourself to lethargic gameplay. You are ACTIVELY a part of the problem. Instead of trying to assist your team, ping them, or even going into battle regardless and assisting them as best as possible despite the grim situation, you sat and AFK'd at spawn doing nothing. Even if a loss is guaranteed, you can at least fight for second place. Your actions are against the spirit of competitive PvP. This is the gameplay that deserves to be punished. You claim that the developers are aware of the situation, I question that they're even aware of anything going on in PvP at all. They have been making out of touch, nonsensical changes since 6.1 dropped years ago, and ignoring issues that actively made the game worse for everyone. There are a laundry list of examples we can pick from to perfectly illustrate this.

[TofuLove]

Why we just cant agrees with fact ff14 not PvP game, and as i know never was. Its a bit weird expect a lot of nice PvP content in game, what isnt target audience of the game.

Hi! I don't know why it can't be a pvp game? It has dedicated pvp communities, dedicated pvp players (like me and few others in this thread), people who care about pvp balance and want it to be fun... Sure, the netcode is not amazing, but it's not why it is not enjoyable. Having healthy PVP content has a lot of replayability that PVE content may just not have, and is great for when there are no new PVE content or if you can't be bothered learning PVE content and waiting in partyfinder, but still want to have some good games.

PvP by default implies some kind of inequality. Someone will always be better and someone worse.

I am not complaining about difference in skill level. Having some people that are better than others at a game is completely normal. And skill expression and skill ceiling is reached with either talent (believe it or not, even in 8 button pvp mode that we have at the moment - some people are just plain amazing at pressing those buttons) or just playing for awhile. You can't win every game, and someone has to - sometimes it's just not you or me. Sometimes teams are just better and that's fine, but it's sad to see people not try to win at all. It makes for an experience that doesn't help with the replayability of that content.

Like sure, if you don't queue PVP regularly, just pressing buttons and seeing people melt can be a bit fun, but then if you actually go past that and ask yourself "how do i get good enough to win?". And then you find yourself in Onsal like yourself, just watching your alliance not trying at all can be a bit sad.

I am privileged enough to have experienced really really good games during organised pvp events and when finding myself in teams of good people in all alliances. I would love the high level of coordination and sportmanship to be easily accessible to all as it's very fun when everyone is trying.

I am also sad to see a lot of people who are regulars in the mode quit the game. Not just because of the hit-detection changes or pvp balance issues, but because of the lack of interest in trying from the community. All of us don't have huge amounts of time to game in our day to day lives, so why spend it on something that is just ...plain not fun because you get into a team that decided to throw a match. And after a certain point there is just no achievements left either, so... time to unsub? Huge portion of my friend list certainly think so.

My initial take of completely removing PVP rewards from 2nd or 3rd places, is meant to be a bit of a cry for help, so part intentionally radical. I appreciate that the actual answer is more subtle than that, but it's something I wish SE addressed, where good effort gets rewarded, rather than neglected.

[AllenThyl]

The issue is NA / EU mentality, which is for too great a part "just here for the xp". There is actually a way to solve this, and that is more moderation. There need to be hard (and fast) consequences for people who engage in lethargic behavior / feeding, as well as all their enablers. Posting anything that undermines another player's motivation to participate and win ("it's just a game", "it's not even real pvp", "lol don't take it all so serious") should all fall under the umbrella of nuisance behavior and obstruction of play. There is a certain irony that a community so averse to any kind of "toxicity" is so okay with dismissing and talking down other people for wanting to actually have a good pvp match, when they voluntarily joined a pvp match, but aren't remotely interested in pvp.

[Mawlzy]

The issue is NA / EU mentality, which is for too great a part "just here for the xp". There is actually a way to solve this, and that is more moderation. There need to be hard (and fast) consequences for people who engage in lethargic behavior / feeding, as well as all their enablers. Posting anything that undermines another player's motivation to participate and win ("it's just a game", "it's not even real pvp", "lol don't take it all so serious") should all fall under the umbrella of nuisance behavior and obstruction of play. There is a certain irony that a community so averse to any kind of "toxicity" is so okay with dismissing and talking down other people for wanting to actually have a good pvp match, when they voluntarily joined a pvp match, but aren't remotely interested in pvp.

!!!

I agree with all of this. Have an updoot.

[FlopsyPrince]

The issue is NA / EU mentality, which is for too great a part "just here for the xp". There is actually a way to solve this, and that is more moderation. There need to be hard (and fast) consequences for people who engage in lethargic behavior / feeding, as well as all their enablers. Posting anything that undermines another player's motivation to participate and win ("it's just a game", "it's not even real pvp", "lol don't take it all so serious") should all fall under the umbrella of nuisance behavior and obstruction of play. There is a certain irony that a community so averse to any kind of "toxicity" is so okay with dismissing and talking down other people for wanting to actually have a good pvp match, when they voluntarily joined a pvp match, but aren't remotely interested in pvp.

This is one of the reasons I haven't even tried PvP. I would almost certainly suck and get labelled like this as being exploitative.

And some wonder why it is so hard to find those to participate!

[Archeron]

This is one of the reasons I haven't even tried PvP. I would almost certainly suck and get labelled like this as being exploitative.

And some wonder why it is so hard to find those to participate!

Yes, it is too much to ask someone that joins a frontlines match to target the enemies and press one of their many abilities to deal damage to them, or to not AFK. We ask too much of the casual PvP players when we want them to contribute literally *Anything* to the team. Similarily, I can't believe people expect me to deal dps in Alliance raids, and avoid collecting vuln stacks/dying. Why can't people just carry me? I can't believe they expect me to actually contribute to the clear.

[Mawlzy]

This is one of the reasons I haven't even tried PvP. I would almost certainly suck and get labelled like this as being exploitative.

And some wonder why it is so hard to find those to participate!

I'd agree that everyone sucks at first, but what that tends to mean is that rookies die a lot. If you engage the enemy, press your attack buttons in a random order, and hit recuperate when someone hits you, your end of match numbers will demonstrate you were trying.

[AllenThyl]

This is one of the reasons I haven't even tried PvP. I would almost certainly suck and get labelled like this as being exploitative.

And some wonder why it is so hard to find those to participate!

My post wasn't about "bad" players. Being inexperienced and still learning is a lot different from the behaviors I mentioned. I was specifically talking about people who are feeding, i.e. deliberately running into the enemy team to get killed, which feeds the enemy points and battle high. This kind of behavior is prohibited by the ToS. The "lethargic behavior" means people who are functionally afk. They aren't really afk, because afking in Frontline has much shorter time to kick in than in other duties, and afk people get autokicked. What these people are doing, is circumventing the autokick system by moving from time to time. Some of them are just standing in spawn, these are the more obvious ones. I have also seen some people trying to hide in some more remote locations that aren't especially obvious, like the elevated node spawns. I have also seen people hanging out with enemies, just picnicking. The more advanced people follow the main group, but always stay back. I had a gunbreaker in my group recently, who was so passive, that they didn't even bother attacking the crystal, which is a stationary PvE target. There is a scoreboard at the end, showing everyone's kill / deaths / assists, as well as the damage and healing they did, and some will end a 12 minute game with 0 damage. No hyperbole, literally 0 damage. My screenshot folder is full of them because I report every single instance.

Again, all of this behavior is already against the ToS, and should be sanctioned with strikes and bans. However, as annoying as all these ToS-breakers are, they are trumped by the enablers who protect this kind of behavior. I have seen groups not kick people who have been offline since the start of the game (frankly, the game should autokick everyone incl. penalty when they aren't reconnected within 1 minute). I have seen people viscerally defend others who were blatantly afking in spawn. "Shut up and just play", while there is someone afking, literally not playing at all. Whatever toxicity you think you will get from the "tryhards" in PvP, it's absolutely dwarfed by the vitriol spewed by the not-even-botherers. And frankly, this kind of communication should also count as ToS violation, which SE should explicitly listing it as examples of nuisance behavior. The same is true for all the "this is just casual frontline", "lol play ranked if you want serious pvp" comments. If someone doesn't even have the basic motivation to participate in a PvP mode after actively queuing for a PvP mode (no one ends in PvP by accident, can't even get it in mentor roulette), they should at least keep their demotivation to themselves.

[Sinstrel]

They could have 2nd and 3rd place only recieve PvP rewards (battle pass xp and wolf marks) while PvE exp and tomes are an additional reward only given to 1st place.