Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

[Supersnow845]

Soon as you figure out how to balance Benediction to not be overpowered compared to new players without it, we'll take it into consideration.

Benediction is hilariously one of the worst examples as it’s quite possibly WHM’s worst oGCD

If you compare it to any other healer skill with a 3 minute CD benediction looks hilariously weak

[Sheriyana]

Rather than jury rigging a 100 different combinations of balance for every job like some suggest.....why not just.....make lower level jobs less garbage to play?

Kinda seems like people miss the forest through the trees here.

And how do you figure this isn't complicated? You'd have to redesign every job every single expansion just to give the cool shit by level 15 and give you nothing but fluff from that point on if you want to keep the low level play experience engaging. It really is much simpler to just adjust the numbers and not have to go through and adjust every skill for every job in terms of what level they're obtained. There really isn't a way to keep low level play engaging while locking abilities behind leveling, as you're clearly going to be missing 90% of your kit when forced into a level 15 dungeon. I doubt people would be happy getting nothing but ability upgrading traits that change the look of a skill and give it 10 higher potency for a 100 levels either.

[Mikey_R]

It's not 'easy' to get it to feel as best as you can, but it is irrelevant how big the potency was because you'll be snacking it all with reductions. Yes I'm aware some potencies are big. This feature is seen in other MMOs, so we've seen it at work. This isn't voodoo math. I still strongly doubt they will have long lasting value in the idea of making the kits feel good at lower levels by redoing them. They have already shown it doesn't work essentially, each expansion it wrecks into lower content. They'll do all this work and then a couple expansions, poof.

I think one of the key points you missed was burst potential, which I did gloss over, so I will elaborate here.

If we take a level 50 PLD, for example, it's AoE rotation is Total Eclipse > Prominence, for a total of 270 potency, or, 135 potency per GCD.

If we then get to level 72, and add Magic Circle, that would bring the total potency up to 470, or ~157 potency per GCD. We could reduce the damage from this combo by ~14% and it will do the same average potency. Ok, we are still in simple maths here.

We hit level 80 and get Confiteor, how do we balance against that? That is 920 potency, every minute. You could reduce it by the ~14%, and get ~791 potency. We are still almost 6 times as strong (3 times as strong for anything other than the main target) as the unmodified combo from level 50. But that isn't the end, we have the Requiescat buff up, I also have charges for 3 Holy Circles at 300 potency each (DM is 200 potency), which is something I didn't mention at level 72.

Level 90 we then get the rest of the blade combo, further pushing the damage up 400+, 500+, 600+ damage compared to Holy Circle, add in Blade of Honor at level 100 for another 1000 potency. The value of this burst just gets higher and higher. It creates a massive gap between the sustained damage and the burst damage. If you were to just calculate a flat % damage reduction on everything, you end up with weaker lows and still really strong highs.

We then have oGCDs, how do you factor in the extra damage gained by them? How about if it goes from single target (Spirit's Within) to AoE (Expiacion)? How about things like Kassatsu where you replace a 650 potency Raiton with a 1300 potency Hyosho Ranryu (which might actually be 1690 if it gets affected by the Kassatsu damage buff).

This is not a simple case of just reducing damage by a fixed %, there is a lot you need to consider that do not necessarily scale well that you would need to adjust for.

As for making the low level experience better, that sounds like a much easier task, especially if we consider many jobs really haven't changed that much since base ARR. PLD was always a 123 job with the only use for Riot Blade back in ARR was to replenish MP if you flashed too much. You were better off getting aggro, then rotating around the targets with your single target combo to keep enmity. Yes, there was Shield Swipe, but noone really cared for it, it wasn't even a DPS gain in ARR IIRC and I made use of the pacify in 1 instance, and that is Ifrit Hard.

Monk, same base combo, still have perfect balance, all Monk has really lost is Touch of Death, Blood for Blood and Internal Release (the fists were set and forget). Steal Peak and Howling Fist I think would get in the way at later levels due to Brotherhood, so making them low level Chakra spenders was a good move. However, we could also bring back the fists as low level riddles. Fists of Earth could just be the damage reduction, with Riddle of Earth giving the regen and Earth's Reply, Fists of Wind could be a 25% reduction to AA delay, upgrading to 50% for Riddle, Fists of Fire could be a 5% increase, upgraded to 15% for Riddle. Add in Celestial Revolution as an early Masterful Blitz for the Perfect Balance finisher, upgrading at level 60 to include the Lunar/Solar Nadi interaction.

With a couple of changes, we have made a solid Monk foundation for level 50. Balance this damage and leave it. Once you get to level 60, balance again, if you need to change potencies, make a trait that increases the damage. That then doesn't mess with the balance that has already been made at lower levels. Monk is a bit lean on things between 54 and 60, so you can put that trait in there (level 56) and make level 58 the upgrade to Fists of Earth to Riddle of Earth, leaving Earth's Reply at 64.

This job is now better at low levels, it has been built in a way where syncing down isn't as detrimental, it has all been balanced and ultimately, it is just going to be a better experience for the low level players as well. Considering this is one of the main complaints, that jobs don't feel fun at low levels, even for newer players. Take the time to improve it. Tey shouldn't have the rotations we have at level 100, they would be far too much, but they do need a solid foundation in order to build everything up from.

[Deniza]

I think one of the key points you missed was burst potential, which I did gloss over, so I will elaborate here...

Which does only really matter in Ultimates and at the end can also be adjusted with numbers changing through the sync system. If they where to make a compromise and "just" adjust the leveling experience, which I don't think is such an easy feat to begin with, and I still won't have all the abilities that I have at the level I am currently at. Then I still would have 0 interest in running low level content.

Like many mentioned before other MMO's that managed that syncing more or less in a great way but they managed it so that content is enjoyable and you are not punished for getting synced down.

And after all I don't think we should really be trying to math out if its possible. We are not the devs. The only thing we can do is to voice what we want and the devs, if they even read the forum then see if they can implement it, if it is even on their prio list and then if the previous if's are all aligned. They think about how to implement it. And I'm pretty sure all the math we do won't matter for them as they got their systems that they know more about than we do and they will reach a conclusion on how to do stuff.
If it weren't that case I think the game would be shut down already.

[undull1]

You are making a vague suggestion of "just make jobs less garbage to play" without offering any method to actually do that. The reality is that almost every solution will result in those 100 different combinations of balance per job.

If we want a simpler solution it would just be to let people not lose their abilities and adjust the numbers instead. This would require a lot of playtesting and finetuning though, so we are right back to complicated solutions.

Fine, bare with me as I'm phone typing so long paragraphs aren't gonna be easy and this will come out as a scattered ramble.

A lot of jobs are basically incomplete until lvl70, missing core parts of what their final lvl100 state will be. Off the top of my head, Paladin, Dark knight, Gun breaker, Reaper, Summoner and Dancer all feel painfully lacking in ARR and HW content (Summoner has maybe a single OGCD that matters added from lvl 26 to 86......let that sink in).

Many of these jobs have room for more skills to be added and removed actions that could be reimagined as different skills for cost-saving.

For example, condense some of the 60-80 skills into 40-60 lvls then add some more niche skills to the 60-80 range. I would argue that more focus should be put on making higher level skills situational skills usable outside of the normal rotation for better player skill expression (e.g. red mages reprise, monks six sided star, machinists flamethrower), the sort of stuff that is not ALWAYS the best answer but when used smartly can be a DPS/Utility gain.

To put it as a food metaphor, rather than cramming the plate with even more meat, give us some potatoes alongside the core of the meal.

[Sheriyana]

Which does only really matter in Ultimates and at the end can also be adjusted with numbers changing through the sync system. If they where to make a compromise and "just" adjust the leveling experience, which I don't think is such an easy feat to begin with, and I still won't have all the abilities that I have at the level I am currently at. Then I still would have 0 interest in running low level content.

Like many mentioned before other MMO's that managed that syncing more or less in a great way but they managed it so that content is enjoyable and you are not punished for getting synced down.

And after all I don't think we should really be trying to math out if its possible. We are not the devs. The only thing we can do is to voice what we want and the devs, if they even read the forum then see if they can implement it, if it is even on their prio list and then if the previous if's are all aligned. They think about how to implement it. And I'm pretty sure all the math we do won't matter for them as they got their systems that they know more about than we do and they will reach a conclusion on how to do stuff.
If it weren't that case I think the game would be shut down already.

This. When other MMOs manage it just fine, there's no reason whatsoever that XIV can't do the same. I don't want to hear a single made up excuse as to why it "can't be done". It is not our job to think of ways to fix it, the devs can do the calculations, they get paid to work on the game.

It benefits everyone to make jobs fun to play in all content so I think it really would be a big boon for the game and help revitalize old content. It could even give us other wonderful QoL benefits like maybe getting rid off having to manually sync for lower level fates, just auto sync your stats when you enter a fate area (maybe add like a few second countdown on it if a fate spawns on top of you) since there's no need to mess with what skills are available and tanks wouldn't always have to put their tank stance back up every single time they're forced to sync down.

[Daralii]

Whether it's feasible or not (most likely not) I wish we could just experience each patch's content with the skillsets each job had during their major patch cycle, so ARR content with 2.x skillsets, HW with 3.x, and so on.

There've been way too many fundamental changes for that. Imagine rolling MNK back from nadis to Greased Lightning stacks, for example. AST has had 3 or 4 very different versions of the card system, and every expansion between major reworks still had smaller revisions.

[Buttobi]

Fine, bare with me as I'm phone typing so long paragraphs aren't gonna be easy and this will come out as a scattered ramble.

A lot of jobs are basically incomplete until lvl70, missing core parts of what their final lvl100 state will be. Off the top of my head, Paladin, Dark knight, Gun breaker, Reaper, Summoner and Dancer all feel painfully lacking in ARR and HW content (Summoner has maybe a single OGCD that matters added from lvl 26 to 86......let that sink in).

Many of these jobs have room for more skills to be added and removed actions that could be reimagined as different skills for cost-saving.

For example, condense some of the 60-80 skills into 40-60 lvls then add some more niche skills to the 60-80 range. I would argue that more focus should be put on making higher level skills situational skills usable outside of the normal rotation for better player skill expression (e.g. red mages reprise, monks six sided star, machinists flamethrower), the sort of stuff that is not ALWAYS the best answer but when used smartly can be a DPS/Utility gain.

To put it as a food metaphor, rather than cramming the plate with even more meat, give us some potatoes alongside the core of the meal.

Sounds like a decent solution. I will not pretend my solution is the best one, there are many ways to tackle this problem. I just think between your proposed solution and mine, both of them are very time intensive to implement. Personally I want SE to take the time to rework this part of the game so whichever solution they go with, I will give it a chance.

[AvoSturmfaust]

Lowering the Level you get xyz Skill isnt the Solution either, the only real Solution is literally do let us keep our Skills in every cirumstance, i mean one of the most important things to improve is to learn your rotation and to use your rotation in certain situations be it a Dungeon, a Raid a Trial or anything but you cant even use your full Rotation in 95% of the Content avaible in the Game with this change it would even improve with the time the skill player have because they will always have acces to the Skillset in every situation.

[Deniza]

It benefits everyone to make jobs fun to play in all content so I think it really would be a big boon for the game and help revitalize old content. It could even give us other wonderful QoL benefits like maybe getting rid off having to manually sync for lower level fates, just auto sync your stats when you enter a fate area (maybe add like a few second countdown on it if a fate spawns on top of you) since there's no need to mess with what skills are available and tanks wouldn't always have to put their tank stance back up every single time they're forced to sync down.

This is a great point that I didn't even think of at all. Fating in lower level content is so annoying with the current system. And like you mentioned tanks as example loosing the tanks stance, so are all other jobs as well loosing every buff they previosely added before the sync, due to the level change also syncing down the abilities and everything. If that wouldn't happen, then dancers for example also wouldn't have to constantly dancepartner again and so much more.