Please let us keep our abilities on sync down

[AvoSturmfaust]

I agree im fully for this idea, one of the reasons i hate doing dailys is literally the fact that i always have to adjust for every fucking daily, and its not fun to come in a dungeon and have 2 buttons not even a AoE

[programcanaan]

Dynamic Difficulty scaling would be rather nice. Let people use the abilities they earned and at the same time make them have to give more effort for slightly better performance. From a progression and overworld standpoint ESO is a good example of this.

[Mikey_R]

I don't think people quite realise how strong things actually are when compared to low level.

I done a calculation in this post here to highlight it. Granted, this is for PLD before the rework, but other jobs are going to have similar situations.

If I want to use a more recent example, again, PLD. I just tested this and I can kill a bat in Sastasha in 9 GCDs using only single target actions and no FoF. Adding up the potency for 2 combos (Fast Blade > Riot Blade) and then 1 Fast Blade, that is a total potency of 1790 to kill that bat.

Fast forward to level 100 potencies, that same bat would die in 7 GCDs using the same rotation. But PLD has access to more attacks, the combo isn't only 2 GCDs long any more. 1 full combo then Atonement + Supplication is enough to kill, which is 5 GCDs, but you still have a Divine Might Holy Spirit and Sepulchre, which, just with those 2, takes off about 60% of an enemies health. This is also before we take into account buffs like FoF or the insane damage locked behind Imperator.

As another example, BLM's Fire 1 in Sastasha is 252 potency after AF1, at level 100, with all the traits and AF3 is 556 potency, but wait, you don't use Fire 1, that has been replaced with Paradox, that would come out to 892 potency and that is without AF3 as I don't think that affects it, but you do spam Fire 4, 988 potency, yes, it takes longer to cast, but you are still doing close to 4 times the damage of the basic Fire 1 spell.

You can look at any job and see similar trends across the potencies and, it is all well and good saying, just reduce the potency, but where are you going to reduce the potency from? For melees, you could make the averages of your combos the same, but that makes the start of your combo weaker and the end stronger than the low level and doesn't take into account the massive burst potential. All a low level PLD can do in FoF is Fast Blade > Riot Blade, a level 100 is slapping Goring Blade and the Confiteor combo, plus extra oGCDs.

Which is another thing, oGCDs. With the vast array of ways they increase damage, not all of them directly potency related, it makes it even harder to just use some universal scaling. Monk doesn't get Riddle of Fire until 68, that is an extra 15% damage for 20 seconds every minute, which then later gives them access to Fire's Reply, for even more potency.

This is not something that is as simple as people make it out to be, you have to remember, we aren't just balancing level 100 against content lower than them, it is also lower levels having to have the balance applied to levels lower than them as well. It is a monumental task that just isn't worth it when the sync does the job just fine. This is also before we take into account defensives and healing.

Now, this isn't to say the low level kits cannot be reworked to make them more engaging, they should and this should be the route taken. Plus, adding in more traits like Melee Mastery, that just increase the potencies of things can help keep the low level scaled properly and avoid the potency creep that used to happen.

[Buttobi]

Is it not possible to have all potencies reduced by a certain percentage in lower level dungeons? This would require a lot of testing and finetuning but if you do a flat percentage decrease on all damage dealt would that not mean that having all abilities in lower level dungeons be possible? Maybe I am too stupid to see why this would not work so I am genuinely wondering if this is not a feasible solution.

[AvoSturmfaust]

Is it not possible to have all potencies reduced by a certain percentage in lower level dungeons? This would require a lot of testing and finetuning but if you do a flat percentage decrease on all damage dealt would that not mean that having all abilities in lower level dungeons be possible? Maybe I am too stupid to see why this would not work so I am genuinely wondering if this is not a feasible solution.

It would work,but its just something you cant do from day to another day, its something which needs a lot of playtesting etc

take as example wow,wow has in my opinion the best way how syncing content works,but its still not flawless

i think square can do it but it will take time effort and a lot of issues with it, and lets be real people will start to complain 5s after it would be released instead of waiting for bugfixes etc

[Shougun]

I don't think people quite realise how strong things actually are when compared to low level. I done a calculation in this post here to highlight it. Granted, this is for PLD before the rework, but other jobs are going to have similar situations. If I want to use a more recent example, again, PLD. I just tested this and I can kill a bat in Sastasha in 9 GCDs using only single target actions and no FoF. Adding up the potency for 2 combos (Fast Blade > Riot Blade) and then 1 Fast Blade, that is a total potency of 1790 to kill that bat. Fast forward to level 100 potencies, that same bat would die in 7 GCDs using the same rotation. But PLD has access to more attacks, the combo isn't only 2 GCDs long any more. 1 full combo then Atonement + Supplication is enough to kill, which is 5 GCDs, but you still have a Divine Might Holy Spirit and Sepulchre, which, just with those 2, takes off about 60% of an enemies health. This is also before we take into account buffs like FoF or the insane damage locked behind Imperator. As another example, BLM's Fire 1 in Sastasha is 252 potency after AF1, at level 100, with all the traits and AF3 is 556 potency, but wait, you don't use Fire 1, that has been replaced with Paradox, that would come out to 892 potency and that is without AF3 as I don't think that affects it, but you do spam Fire 4, 988 potency, yes, it takes longer to cast, but you are still doing close to 4 times the damage of the basic Fire 1 spell. You can look at any job and see similar trends across the potencies and, it is all well and good saying, just reduce the potency, but where are you going to reduce the potency from? For melees, you could make the averages of your combos the same, but that makes the start of your combo weaker and the end stronger than the low level and doesn't take into account the massive burst potential. All a low level PLD can do in FoF is Fast Blade > Riot Blade, a level 100 is slapping Goring Blade and the Confiteor combo, plus extra oGCDs. Which is another thing, oGCDs. With the vast array of ways they increase damage, not all of them directly potency related, it makes it even harder to just use some universal scaling. Monk doesn't get Riddle of Fire until 68, that is an extra 15% damage for 20 seconds every minute, which then later gives them access to Fire's Reply, for even more potency. This is not something that is as simple as people make it out to be, you have to remember, we aren't just balancing level 100 against content lower than them, it is also lower levels having to have the balance applied to levels lower than them as well. It is a monumental task that just isn't worth it when the sync does the job just fine. This is also before we take into account defensives and healing. Now, this isn't to say the low level kits cannot be reworked to make them more engaging, they should and this should be the route taken. Plus, adding in more traits like Melee Mastery, that just increase the potencies of things can help keep the low level scaled properly and avoid the potency creep that used to happen.

Is it not possible to have all potencies reduced by a certain percentage in lower level dungeons? This would require a lot of testing and finetuning but if you do a flat percentage decrease on all damage dealt would that not mean that having all abilities in lower level dungeons be possible? Maybe I am too stupid to see why this would not work so I am genuinely wondering if this is not a feasible solution.

It's not 'easy' to get it to feel as best as you can, but it is irrelevant how big the potency was because you'll be snacking it all with reductions. Yes I'm aware some potencies are big. This feature is seen in other MMOs, so we've seen it at work. This isn't voodoo math. I still strongly doubt they will have long lasting value in the idea of making the kits feel good at lower levels by redoing them. They have already shown it doesn't work essentially, each expansion it wrecks into lower content. They'll do all this work and then a couple expansions, poof.


While syncing isn't easy, manually crafting each and every job is a much much larger undertaking. Creating a quality sync will last longer, be very likely easier, and the tools developed there can be used in other situations.


Whatever testing a sync will take will pale in comparison to redoing every kit to feel better at lower levels and then touching them again when your expansion smacks it all.


The easiest is to do nothing, but we're saying that feels really bad / boring.

[Deniza]

As many already pointed out there is a lot of balancing that needs to be happen. But that shouldn't be something to scare away from implementing a better gaming experience when helping out friends or doing low level rouletts.
At this moment from what I read many are not doing low level content or having a bad time doing such content.
Meanwhile when I remember playing SWToR which also was mentioned as an MMO that managed doing such a sync system quite well. I never had any issues with doing low level content. And when I was leveling another character I didn't have any issues with my lack of abilities either, even as tank. So it surely is possible as many other MMO's proved.
It will never be perfect, but how it is now is also not perfect. People are refusing to engage in low level content. People who could help new players get faster queues. Leveling dungeons as DPS is pretty much dead and if you find a group its mainly the people who still need to level and do their rouletts.
Rewards could be upped for leveling rouletts as welll to encourage max lvl people to enter it daily.

There are overall many things that can be done to make this happen and I see none of the issues mentioned as particularly unmanagable. I don't know how to balance this stuff or how it would work best, I don't claim to be an expert in this at all. I just know from other MMO's that where already mentioned that it is possible to do it. Even when its not perfect at least the gameplay is fun. And at low level dungeons the balancing being off doesn't matter. The only content imO. they would have to keep a better eye on balancing stuff is old Ultimates. Everything else I don't think would be all to bad.

[Mikey_R]

It's not 'easy' to get it to feel as best as you can, but it is irrelevant how big the potency was because you'll be snacking it all with reductions. Yes I'm aware some potencies are big. This feature is seen in other MMOs, so we've seen it at work. This isn't voodoo math. I still strongly doubt they will have long lasting value in the idea of making the kits feel good at lower levels by redoing them. They have already shown it doesn't work essentially, each expansion it wrecks into lower content. They'll do all this work and then a couple expansions, poof.

I think one of the key points you missed was burst potential, which I did gloss over, so I will elaborate here.

If we take a level 50 PLD, for example, it's AoE rotation is Total Eclipse > Prominence, for a total of 270 potency, or, 135 potency per GCD.

If we then get to level 72, and add Magic Circle, that would bring the total potency up to 470, or ~157 potency per GCD. We could reduce the damage from this combo by ~14% and it will do the same average potency. Ok, we are still in simple maths here.

We hit level 80 and get Confiteor, how do we balance against that? That is 920 potency, every minute. You could reduce it by the ~14%, and get ~791 potency. We are still almost 6 times as strong (3 times as strong for anything other than the main target) as the unmodified combo from level 50. But that isn't the end, we have the Requiescat buff up, I also have charges for 3 Holy Circles at 300 potency each (DM is 200 potency), which is something I didn't mention at level 72.

Level 90 we then get the rest of the blade combo, further pushing the damage up 400+, 500+, 600+ damage compared to Holy Circle, add in Blade of Honor at level 100 for another 1000 potency. The value of this burst just gets higher and higher. It creates a massive gap between the sustained damage and the burst damage. If you were to just calculate a flat % damage reduction on everything, you end up with weaker lows and still really strong highs.

We then have oGCDs, how do you factor in the extra damage gained by them? How about if it goes from single target (Spirit's Within) to AoE (Expiacion)? How about things like Kassatsu where you replace a 650 potency Raiton with a 1300 potency Hyosho Ranryu (which might actually be 1690 if it gets affected by the Kassatsu damage buff).

This is not a simple case of just reducing damage by a fixed %, there is a lot you need to consider that do not necessarily scale well that you would need to adjust for.

As for making the low level experience better, that sounds like a much easier task, especially if we consider many jobs really haven't changed that much since base ARR. PLD was always a 123 job with the only use for Riot Blade back in ARR was to replenish MP if you flashed too much. You were better off getting aggro, then rotating around the targets with your single target combo to keep enmity. Yes, there was Shield Swipe, but noone really cared for it, it wasn't even a DPS gain in ARR IIRC and I made use of the pacify in 1 instance, and that is Ifrit Hard.

Monk, same base combo, still have perfect balance, all Monk has really lost is Touch of Death, Blood for Blood and Internal Release (the fists were set and forget). Steal Peak and Howling Fist I think would get in the way at later levels due to Brotherhood, so making them low level Chakra spenders was a good move. However, we could also bring back the fists as low level riddles. Fists of Earth could just be the damage reduction, with Riddle of Earth giving the regen and Earth's Reply, Fists of Wind could be a 25% reduction to AA delay, upgrading to 50% for Riddle, Fists of Fire could be a 5% increase, upgraded to 15% for Riddle. Add in Celestial Revolution as an early Masterful Blitz for the Perfect Balance finisher, upgrading at level 60 to include the Lunar/Solar Nadi interaction.

With a couple of changes, we have made a solid Monk foundation for level 50. Balance this damage and leave it. Once you get to level 60, balance again, if you need to change potencies, make a trait that increases the damage. That then doesn't mess with the balance that has already been made at lower levels. Monk is a bit lean on things between 54 and 60, so you can put that trait in there (level 56) and make level 58 the upgrade to Fists of Earth to Riddle of Earth, leaving Earth's Reply at 64.

This job is now better at low levels, it has been built in a way where syncing down isn't as detrimental, it has all been balanced and ultimately, it is just going to be a better experience for the low level players as well. Considering this is one of the main complaints, that jobs don't feel fun at low levels, even for newer players. Take the time to improve it. Tey shouldn't have the rotations we have at level 100, they would be far too much, but they do need a solid foundation in order to build everything up from.

[Deniza]

I think one of the key points you missed was burst potential, which I did gloss over, so I will elaborate here...

Which does only really matter in Ultimates and at the end can also be adjusted with numbers changing through the sync system. If they where to make a compromise and "just" adjust the leveling experience, which I don't think is such an easy feat to begin with, and I still won't have all the abilities that I have at the level I am currently at. Then I still would have 0 interest in running low level content.

Like many mentioned before other MMO's that managed that syncing more or less in a great way but they managed it so that content is enjoyable and you are not punished for getting synced down.

And after all I don't think we should really be trying to math out if its possible. We are not the devs. The only thing we can do is to voice what we want and the devs, if they even read the forum then see if they can implement it, if it is even on their prio list and then if the previous if's are all aligned. They think about how to implement it. And I'm pretty sure all the math we do won't matter for them as they got their systems that they know more about than we do and they will reach a conclusion on how to do stuff.
If it weren't that case I think the game would be shut down already.

[Sheriyana]

Which does only really matter in Ultimates and at the end can also be adjusted with numbers changing through the sync system. If they where to make a compromise and "just" adjust the leveling experience, which I don't think is such an easy feat to begin with, and I still won't have all the abilities that I have at the level I am currently at. Then I still would have 0 interest in running low level content.

Like many mentioned before other MMO's that managed that syncing more or less in a great way but they managed it so that content is enjoyable and you are not punished for getting synced down.

And after all I don't think we should really be trying to math out if its possible. We are not the devs. The only thing we can do is to voice what we want and the devs, if they even read the forum then see if they can implement it, if it is even on their prio list and then if the previous if's are all aligned. They think about how to implement it. And I'm pretty sure all the math we do won't matter for them as they got their systems that they know more about than we do and they will reach a conclusion on how to do stuff.
If it weren't that case I think the game would be shut down already.

This. When other MMOs manage it just fine, there's no reason whatsoever that XIV can't do the same. I don't want to hear a single made up excuse as to why it "can't be done". It is not our job to think of ways to fix it, the devs can do the calculations, they get paid to work on the game.

It benefits everyone to make jobs fun to play in all content so I think it really would be a big boon for the game and help revitalize old content. It could even give us other wonderful QoL benefits like maybe getting rid off having to manually sync for lower level fates, just auto sync your stats when you enter a fate area (maybe add like a few second countdown on it if a fate spawns on top of you) since there's no need to mess with what skills are available and tanks wouldn't always have to put their tank stance back up every single time they're forced to sync down.