Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Supersnow845]

The relative buff BLM got in 7.1 was not 6% - how did you calculate that?

If you ignore the extra Ley Lines charge, the buff to the job was about 0.7%. Now let's assume that you have a short fight like M1S. Checking the top BLM logs, they kill M1S in a little over 7 minutes with about 40 casts of F4 contributing 12k/30k rDPS.

Ley Lines is 30/0.85 seconds of casting time in 30 seconds, so it gets you 5.3 seconds of extra casts. Your GCD is 2.42, now let's assume that you can perfectly align everything to get 3 extra casts of F4 out of your extra LL. 43/40 * 12k = 12.9, then 30.9/30 = 3% buff from extra LL being VERY generous.

Which means that under the most absolutely favorable conditions possible you could maybe consider it a 3.7% buff. Assuming that you played absolutely perfect during a full uptime fight. Fight goes longer? Buff is smaller. Don't align perfectly with the killtime and you only get two extra casts? Buff is smaller. Can't get an extra F4 and have to cast a weaker spell instead? Buff is smaller.

I don't know why people keep insisting on using the 7.1 numbers either. Saying BLM got the same skill debuff as PCT is just pure speculation when we can numerically estimate just how much BLM got buffed by and it's clearly not enough to close the rDPS gap, let alone put it ahead.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if SE did their jobs and actually "brought jobs to PCT's level" like they were saying. Or you know, paid attention to how literally everyone and their mother knew that PCT was going to break ultimate balance.

You also missed the flare buff, flare being instant cast shortened its GCD and made the rotation more accessible and flexible. It’s relatively a larger buff than the raw 3-3.5% that comes from leylines

And estimating 7.1 from 7.05 is exactly what I did, because doing it either way ends up achieving the same thing, either apply the buff on top of 7.05 or estimate the relative drop of the jobs and apply that in reverse. Either way it comes out roughly the same. Specifically because you can see that even though the skill level went down, BLM went up by 5-6%

[Realfoxy]

You also missed the flare buff, flare being instant cast shortened its GCD and made the rotation more accessible and flexible. It’s relatively a larger buff than the raw 3-3.5% that comes from leylines

And estimating 7.1 from 7.05 is exactly what I did, because doing it either way ends up achieving the same thing, either apply the buff on top of 7.05 or estimate the relative drop of the jobs and apply that in reverse. Either way it comes out roughly the same. Specifically because you can see that even though the skill level went down, BLM went up by 5-6%

You never cast Flare in single target, it's a very big DPS loss to do so. Maybe as a recovery option but at that point your rotation is already scuffed.

And if we're balancing around AOE DPS or 2-target scenarios, I've got some bad news for you about what PCT can do...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm not seeing any increase in BLM rDPS from 7.05 to 7.1, not even looking at silly quantities like median rDPS parse. Where's this 5-6% increase coming from?

[Supersnow845]

You never cast Flare in single target, it's a very big DPS loss to do so. Maybe as a recovery option but at that point your rotation is already scuffed.

And if we're balancing around AOE DPS or 2-target scenarios, I've got some bad news for you about what PCT can do...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'm not seeing any increase in BLM rDPS from 7.05 to 7.1, not even looking at silly quantities like median rDPS parse. Where's this 5-6% increase coming from?

So I meant despair not flare, don’t know why I said flare

Also look at average across the 4 fights; BLM at 90th average score was 98 in 7.05 and 105 in 7.1, that’s a 6% buff even accounting for the average player skill dropping in 7.1

[Realfoxy]

So I meant despair not flare, don’t know why I said flare

Also look at average across the 4 fights; BLM at 90th average score was 98 in 7.05 and 105 in 7.1, that’s a 6% buff even accounting for the average player skill dropping in 7.1

OK well if you're talking about the Despair changes, that's already factored into the net 0.7% buff that I mentioned earlier. Yes it is that small, you can thank SE for nerfing Enochian instead of buffing it.

RE: scores, you're misinterpreting the way fflogs presents normalized scores. The scores are not the actual DPS amounts.

If you look at the actual DPS amounts for 90th percentiles, in 7.05 BLM is at 27.42k rDPS and PCT is at 28.92k rDPS. Then if you look at patch 7.1, BLM is at 27.47k rDPS and PCT is at 27.37k rDPS.

Now I think we can all agree that PCT didn't actually get nerfed in 7.1, so once again I have to question why we're bothering to look at 7.1 patch data.

[Supersnow845]

OK well if you're talking about the Despair changes, that's already factored into the net 0.7% buff that I mentioned earlier. Yes it is that small, you can thank SE for nerfing Enochian instead of buffing it.

RE: scores, you're misinterpreting the way fflogs presents normalized scores. The scores are not the actual DPS amounts.

If you look at the actual DPS amounts for 90th percentiles, in 7.05 BLM is at 27.42k rDPS and PCT is at 28.92k rDPS. Then if you look at patch 7.1, BLM is at 27.47k rDPS and PCT is at 27.37k rDPS.

Now I think we can all agree that PCT didn't actually get nerfed in 7.1, so once again I have to question why we're bothering to look at 7.1 patch data.

Because if PCT’s skill went down then BLM did as well

You are basically saying “PCT didn’t get nerfed so ignore 7.1” then ignore 7.1 buffed BLM. There is no reason to believe that PCT went proportionally down while BLM didn’t

So you can increase PCT’s 7.1 score back to its 7.05 score but you also have to proportionally increase BLM’s score which still puts BLM ahead because the same lower skilled players are playing BLM and PCT in 7.1

That’s why it’s normalised score is higher

[Realfoxy]

Because if PCT’s skill went down then BLM did as well

You are basically saying “PCT didn’t get nerfed so ignore 7.1” then ignore 7.1 buffed BLM. There is no reason to believe that PCT went proportionally down while BLM didn’t

So you can increase PCT’s 7.1 score back to its 7.05 score but you also have to proportionally increase BLM’s score which still puts BLM ahead because the same lower skilled players are playing BLM and PCT in 7.1

That’s why it’s normalised score is higher

OK this going to be my last comment on this topic.

We know the gap in 7.05 (5.5% at 90th percentile rDPS), and we know the effect of the BLM buffs (3.7% AT MOST), and we know that BLM didn't get enough to catch up in rDPS. And if it's not catching up in rDPS (where a non burst job should be ahead), it's certainly not going to catch up anywhere close in cDPS.

Additionally, it might not be correct to scale up both jobs' 7.1 data. If the BLM buffs made it so much easier to play like you said, we'd expect BLM to gain relatively more with bad players compared to PCT which should have stayed the same. But we don't need to balance the game around people clearing in week 15 or whatever it is. At that point job balance doesn't matter at all since you're going to have plenty of gear and anyone can clear on anything they want, and the answer to "why can't I clear" isn't going to be "switch jobs" but instead just "play your job properly".

I personally don't get the insistence on defending SE's balancing here. Sure, I don't expect things to be perfect, but I expect some level of competence out of them. The fact that PCT was this far ahead on Savage release, the fact people KNEW its kit was going to be unbalanced in FRU when it was released - all these things were known MONTHS in advance and absolutely nothing was done.

Anyway, I look forward to the incremental buffs to BLM on every single even patch that barely bring it close to balanced by the end of the expansion, only for 8.0 to release, everything to get reverted, and SE to have learned nothing. At least that way I won't be disappointed.

[Lyth]

...

This is the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants their job to be nerfed. But failing to nerf an overpowered job makes people feel as if they have to play that job if they want to continue on in that role. And if they're not happy with the thought of that switch, they'll either have to find a new role or leave the game.

I was not happy with the state of tank balance for a long time given WAR's preferential treatment, and very nearly stopped playing the game entirely because of it. That's as someone with over a ten year investment in this game. It's really only the fact that there were new melee aesthetics that I found fun that I found a role that I could be much happier in. You can quickly see why the resentment that arises from milquetoast job balancing is incredibly bad for the game. You will temporarily hurt some feelings by nerfing an overpowered job. But when players see that you are committed to fairness all around without playing favorites, then they'll start to see the bigger picture.

I also was playing RPR in raid content at the time of the EW nerf, but I could still see why they did it. And even still, it did have some fantastic moments (Everburn? Yes please.) PCT is in the exact same situation now. It needs a nerf to set things right. But if we have a job balance team that is actually proactive about balancing instead of reactively mollifying everyone, it won't be very long before it has more moments to shine in the future. I want to see lots of different jobs trade-off and have chances to be on top, be they melee or ranged. I want every fight to favor different jobs, and that should change dynamically as fight clear times change and burst windows shift. I don't want to see the same jobs locked in, tier after tier. Variety is good.

I've made these points so many times now, that I'm starting to think the only solution is to rotate in a fresh job balance team with a new philosophy. One without the old biases and job preferences.

[Altera]

This is the problem, isn't it? Nobody wants their job to be nerfed. But failing to nerf an overpowered job makes people feel as if they have to play that job if they want to continue on in that role. And if they're not happy with the thought of that switch, they'll either have to find a new role or leave the game.

I was not happy with the state of tank balance for a long time given WAR's preferential treatment, and very nearly stopped playing the game entirely because of it. That's as someone with over a ten year investment in this game. It's really only the fact that there were new melee aesthetics that I found fun that I found a role that I could be much happier in. You can quickly see why the resentment that arises from milquetoast job balancing is incredibly bad for the game. You will temporarily hurt some feelings by nerfing an overpowered job. But when players see that you are committed to fairness all around without playing favorites, then they'll start to see the bigger picture.

Yeah I will be honest that PCT being left alone for this long, even locking me out of a few PFs as a THM main in 1.0 until Jobsystem was introduced later, then BLM ever since, has made me feel like quitting this game permanently until they fix PCT before Chaotic goes live next week. And I have a /playtime of 1800+ DAYS. I've never ever let my subscription lapse once since they started subscription fee in 2012. So I have thousands of €€€ and years invested into this game.
Overpowered classes completely ruins the fun for every other class it competes against.
I let my subscription go from 180 days down to monthly and my max retainers down to 2 extra as I'm slowly winding down my desire to continue playing after Dawntrail launched and PCT being left to break the remaining fun of the game. I despise PCT now. I bet if PCT was not this powerful that it wouldn't be nearly as much played.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah I will be honest that PCT being left alone for this long, even locking me out of a few PFs as a THM main in 1.0 until Jobsystem was introduced later, then BLM ever since, has made me feel like quitting this game permanently until they fix PCT before Chaotic goes live next week. And I have a /playtime of 1800+ DAYS. I've never ever let my subscription lapse once since they started subscription fee in 2012. So I have thousands of €€€ and years invested into this game.
Overpowered classes completely ruins the fun for every other class it competes against.
I let my subscription go from 180 days down to monthly and my max retainers down to 2 extra as I'm slowly winding down my desire to continue playing after Dawntrail launched and PCT being left to break the remaining fun of the game. I despise PCT now. I bet if PCT was not this powerful that it wouldn't be nearly as much played.

I legit like don’t understand this mindset. Like I said I’m fine to nerf PCT, it won’t change my desire to play it, but like we’ve already gone through this song and dance before. BLM was getting ripped to shreds by SMN in early ShB and was pretty poor overall in early EW as well

Youve got to understand that “if my job isn’t first it’s last” isn’t a sustainable mindset despite the fact that BLM has been clinging to it for 4 expansions now because it doesn’t have utility.

Again nerf PCT, it literally changes nothing to me, but if PCT isn’t allowed to flourish in its niche of ultimate (so at least 1-2% ahead of DRG which puts its 7-8% ahead of BLM) why even have a niche. Was PCT too strong prior to 7.05 in full uptime- 100% it was, was it still too strong after 7.05 before 7.1- yes it still was. Was it so strong after 7.05 that it was destroying the fun of the other jobs- absolutely not

Honestly BLM should be more annoyed than because the 2 minute meta is so emphasised it doesn’t even flourish in fights that are generous to it

[Altera]

I legit like don’t understand this mindset. Like I said I’m fine to nerf PCT, it won’t change my desire to play it, but like we’ve already gone through this song and dance before. BLM was getting ripped to shreds by SMN in early ShB and was pretty poor overall in early EW as well

Youve got to understand that “if my job isn’t first it’s last” isn’t a sustainable mindset despite the fact that BLM has been clinging to it for 4 expansions now because it doesn’t have utility.

Again nerf PCT, it literally changes nothing to me, but if PCT isn’t allowed to flourish in its niche of ultimate (so at least 1-2% ahead of DRG which puts its 7-8% ahead of BLM) why even have a niche

Honestly BLM should be more annoyed than because the 2 minute meta is so emphasised it doesn’t even flourish in fights that are generous to it

When PCT blocks me out of playing the content I want, then there is no reason for me to play is there.

I do not want my job to be OP, I just want things to be normal so one job isn't negating the reason for other jobs to exist. In Stormblood, BLM and Sam was excluded in PF as well because the buffs from ninja, drg monk, smn etc was way more damage than what a BLM or SAM could bring.

That Pictomancer alone made the changes to limit break generation, says pretty clearly something is broken with PCT, as that was to prevent parties to bring 2-4PCT

If PCT needs to be ludicrously overpowered for people to enjoy the job, then that job should be removed from the game. Again if PCT was balanced, I bet majority of people would abandon it completely