Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Wayfinder3]

But if pictomancer didn’t have any of those things. You’d still be calling for a nerf anyway because those utilities don’t make it good. The damage is all that matters.

You can kill every fight in this game on pictomancer without either of those skills on your hot bar and that’s exactly what people would do cause the damage is all that matters.

[Lyth]

During the start of Endwalker, there were a lot of complaints about RPR's utility in addition to its damage. In fairness, they actually did directly quickly nerf Arcane Crest on the basis of those complaints, in addition to indirectly nerfing its DPS to bring it back into check.

What's more likely is that the five person job balance team has a preference around PCT. We know that they can take action if they want to.

[Tigore]

Some of us have been looking at fair nerfs that look at the damage done for the PCT. Right now, they also have Starry Muse to look at. It also provides a 5% raid damage buff to everyone else in party. This is the same bonus as SMN and RDM currently for the abilities Embolden and Searing Light. This is one of the main reasons why some of the proposed nerfs from several posts land them just above those classes. It's also kind of hard to not use Starry Muse since it also provides an instant Rainbow Drip cast for the 2 minute opener.

I understand that the PCT players do want some more personal damage than those 2 classes since that intent is expressed with no raise on the class. It's why I would say the utilities (particularly Starry Muse's raid buff) can be weakened so the personal damage can be nerfed a little less. As for arguments if this would make it unfair to melee, most recent encounters haven't really done it that much when I play SAM. Some of the ranged moves temporarily do comparable damage when you use their disengaging movement tools. NIN can still cast Ninjutsu while running away. MNK uses all Chakra for a slower GCD Six Sided Star burst so they can use Meditate while running away. For casual content, it's mostly just the latest 4 man Expert that obviously places them at a disadvantage. This is due to the middle crater stopping us from using those movement tools and slightly forcing us greater than 20 yalms away. Although the range still have to run in close due to explosions around the outer ring, a stack marker alternated with a spread and needing to get behind the boss to avoid consistent fury swipes. It's usually a slight advantage when all the mechs are considered together. I would mention Strayborough's first boss, but that one has such a vomit of zones to avoid that it starts to make range DPS move too much as well. I guess that one is a slight plus for ranged physical DPS?

As for how the class can be changed so they aren't in a situation where they are good with Ultimates and bad with Savage, we have 2 more complex suggestions within this thread for it. Option 1 could be to make 1 or 2 motif casts faster when completing a subtractive combo or using resources to start the combo. The second option is to nerf the base potencies of Rainbow Drip and the muse cooldowns like Mog and Madeen and move those same numbers back to a buff you get when casting a motif with a target enemy selected. Either that or the motif painting skill itself just damages the target. Make sure to note that the second option still allows you to cast the motif without a target, just it will provide less damage than using it with uptime targeting the boss. This could make the actual opener a little worse compared to the later 2 minute bursts unless the special buff suggested is provided at the start of the dungeon with 3 stacks.

[Wayfinder3]

During the start of Endwalker, there were a lot of complaints about RPR's utility in addition to its damage. In fairness, they actually did directly quickly nerf Arcane Crest on the basis of those complaints, in addition to indirectly nerfing its DPS to bring it back into check.

What's more likely is that the five person job balance team has a preference around PCT. We know that they can take action if they want to.

when this happened, RPR was pretty much overshadowed for the rest of the expansion, and alot of people weren't happy about that

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

when this happened, RPR was pretty much overshadowed for the rest of the expansion, and alot of people weren't happy about that

Wasn't that because they added hundreds of potencies to the other melees?

[Supersnow845]

Wasn't that because they added hundreds of potencies to the other melees?

Yep

RPR not dominating all of EW was fixed in exactly the same way people are angry they are using to fix PCT specifically because that correction is being overshadowed by FRU which specifically favours PCT’s design

[Wayfinder3]

Yep

RPR not dominating all of EW was fixed in exactly the same way people are angry they are using to fix PCT specifically because that correction is being overshadowed by FRU which specifically favours PCT’s design

yep! not to mention RPR basically underperformed relative to other melee for the rest of the expac being mediocre especially by anabesios

[Realfoxy]

But why does that matter, ultimately, black mage is only slightly off pictomancer in fill uptime. So which one you bring is completely irrelevant. Ultimate is the only place where pictomancer eclipses it effortlessly but that’s not a potency issue, that’s an issue with how the class is designed because if you adjust the potency to make pictomancer balanced in ultimate. It is now under performing in savage.

That’s the issue we’re facing. Pictomancer being better than black mage doesn’t matter, one has to be better. The real problem is that it’s so good in ultimate because it was designed around embracing downtime while every other job in the game groans at the thought of it.

Instead of taking from picto, it could be beneficial for use it as the template to move jobs away from this 100% uptime design they have and give them mechanics that scale in various ways with the inclusion of downtime. Pictomancer is the logical extreme, so let’s fill in the gradient a bit.

It's totally possible to nerf PCT more in downtime than in uptime without ruining it. Just toning down the insane burst would help - you shift potency from muses into fillers and cut back on the raid buff it offers.

The job would still feel the same to play, it just wouldn't be the clear best at everything. You could also change motif casts to do a 'splash of paint' and add damage onto them when casted in full uptime. This lets you tone back motifs without having to worry about making painting feel bad when you have to do it in full uptime.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

yep! not to mention RPR basically underperformed relative to other melee for the rest of the expac being mediocre especially by anabesios

I main rpr in EW and I have to agree...it wasn't very fun knowing I was basically playing the weakest melee. Like it was ok and I didn't really have any other choice since smn was gutted in EW and I didn't like any of the other melee. Plus I believe it wasn't great in TOP or DSR. In fact, I remember ppl saying that RPR was really unfun in EW Ultimates bc of the downtime and it sufferd more from the downtime than other melee jobs.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Yep

RPR not dominating all of EW was fixed in exactly the same way people are angry they are using to fix PCT specifically because that correction is being overshadowed by FRU which specifically favours PCT’s design

Are we really comparing a job that favours full uptime (Reaper) vs a job that favours downtimes (Pictomancer) and still is at a genuinely competitive position with most high DPS jobs in full uptime? Reaper's damage was fading the moment any form of downtime was introduced, which DSR provided. Pictomancer is the reverse here, it actually escalates the damage numbers from that fight design while already being in a good position in full uptime, thus going massively ahead.

Should we really just buff all other DPS jobs to match Pictomancer's power level to move it into a position where it is more balanced, just so we can avoid nerfs? Because the difference in doing so is not the same as we had back with Reaper.