Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

[...]

You make good points, and ideally yes we should design jobs to be like PCT - but we also have to be realistic with dev time and how fast they can actually do what we want VS how fast something needs to happen. It simply is not realistic with how much needs to be redesigned to make this work properly, and 8.0 is still a long way off.

I'm basing my suggestions on what can be implemented fast, with reasonable adjustments by the dev team without going for a shot in the dark and reworking everything. The worst thing right now is them doing nothing, the second-worst is just doing a round of buffs to every other job to avoid nerfs (which they might do, much to my dismay) because that simply has a lot of room to upset balance pre-Lv100 for Ultimates.

[Realfoxy]

With the exception of white mage, none of those jobs truly gain in the presence of downtime, they just lose much less than the gauge builders.

The fact is, having more jobs with unique mechanic that reward them in downtime scenarios while being inconsequential in full uptime scenarios is a net positive for class design and balance. It gives jobs different selling points and paths to their power.

The Olympic stretch is going for the gold. Nerfing picto becuase it dominates in one fight that majority of the player base will never is just the equivalent of giving everyone a participation award. That is to say, thanks for playing the same class as everyone else with a different skin. Black Mage and Picto are balanced in savage at the moment, the most popular raiding content in the game at this current moment. That is what is important. This whole thing just highlights how silly it was for SE to basically design none of the other jobs with a substantial gain from downtime. Even white mage could afford to gain more from it, however white mage is screwed by its proximity to astrologian, not becuase downtime like black mage is when compared to picto.

Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

[Valence]

Minor nitpick on BRD in downtime: no competent BRD was actually songless during downtime even before the song changes. I've personally never been, because if what was remaining on your song was too short for a downtime, then you'd cut it short and cast the next one to cover for that downtime. There hasn't been a single downtime bigger than 45s since Eden Prime. What being able to cast songs without targets in battle has brought is mostly usability and more flexibility without having to cut songs short or delay things as much, but in resources and gauge generation, this doesn't help the job more than what we had already. BRD has always been fine with downtime and decently flexible at that. Just not to PCT levels by far.

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

[Realfoxy]

On player skill expression around downtime, I do believe this is a delusional idea. Trying to find solutions around downtime with each specific jobs, sure, requires skill, but who does it? You? No, the Balance does it for you. You just have to go there, or even just look at what other people do, and replicate it to a T. Monkey see, monkey does. There is no skill expression in reality for most of the player base, and even if you try to do it blind, which is commendable, you'll eventually check how other people deal with it past a point, and replicate.

That's why I like downtime skills like Meditate or motif painting, because there's some executional difficulty there in finding ways to paint / meditate during mechanics.

BLM is interesting with MP regen, because short downtimes where you can't get back all your MP cause your uptime rotation to become really interesting.

With regards to "everyone copies the Balance", I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. Technically you can copy whole rotations from people, but that doesn't mean that there's literally zero skill expression in playing each job. Adapting to weird killtimes and managing downtime is still skill testing to some extent. You're never going to get around the fact that it's just so much easier to get advice these days.

[Wayfinder3]

Stop spreading this misinformation. Black Mage is not competing with PCT in full uptime Savage, it's behind, and the 7.1 buffs did not address the problem. Look at 7.05 data for M3S, a full uptime fight. PCT is ahead by 5% in rDPS and is ahead by 14%!!! in cDPS. And before you ask, the BLM buffs in 7.1 were nowhere close to closing that gap.

If BLM isn't ahead in full uptime, it's going to be completely hopeless in downtime fights. If BLM isn't ahead in rDPS, then it's going to be behind once buff contribution is factored in with cDPS.

If the PCT fans want PCT to have a niche, then its niche can be "high burst - good with buffs and downtime (high cDPS), less good in an unco-ordinated party (lower rDPS) or with killtimes not favouring burst". You can't have your niche be "best DPS in every situation in the game + party shield utility".

RE: Other people's point's about downtime: I'm fine with giving other jobs better downtime tools, however I personally find that playing around and managing downtime to be interesting skill expression. PCT motif painting is good because it's not just "slam button". So long as these downtime tools are well designed and in theme with the jobs - SAM meditate is a good example - I think they would make good additions.

Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

[Realfoxy]

Black mage doesn’t need to be ahead at all, it just need to be competitive and it is. A 5% rdps disparity in savage is enough to have you crying that the class is unbalanced is ridiculous. If anything, black mage needs to get utility so that players like you can dispel this idea that just becuase you have no utility doesn’t mean you’re entitled to being the best class in the game.

It’s a design problem you’re advocating for that’s ruined caster balance since 4.0 when majority of player base started to learn how to optimize.

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

[mallleable]

Gonna be another take, but I think 'good in uptime/downtime' is kind of a flimsy way to view job identity. Job identity is a lot more multifaceted than that. FFXIV's combat has both, and it isn't just an ultimate thing. Spots of downtime appear everywhere like in between trash/bosses in dungeons or alliance raids, or even between FATEs, hunt marks, and field operation type things. While yeah PCT is overtuned and needs adjustments, it demonstrates that a job can be designed to work in both uptime, and downtime. So I do think the rest of the jobs need changes, and better tools to work better with downtime, not against it. And these downtime considerations could lead to more choices to make during uptime.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

"I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch"

Know this is a little topic I wouldn't be surprised a BLM did this bc from my own experience for the 4 expacs now Ihave seen a lot of BLM mains that can be very annoying and a little toxic. They are the only mains that I have found annoying bc they are usually very cocky and bull-headed about things. Always says things like "I should be the best job in the game bc Im Yoshi P fav and have no utility." Not saying you or all BLMs are like this but it does feel like there are quite few BLM who feel really entitled and think they should be the best dps all the time. Also realize there are probably PCT mains feeling this way as well and they wrong as well. This why person do believe the caster role as a whole needs a rework and BLM needs more of an identity of "I have to be the best unless Im useless"

Anyway just wanted to share my own exp with BLM mains in the game. I let the thread get back on topic now. I do hope we see something bc all the complaining about PCT is getting really tiring. Personiliy I just wish I could have my pre 6.0 smn back TwT That when I was truly happy with this game.

[Supersnow845]

Look, I don't have a problem with BLM being 5% behind. I do have a problem with BLM being 5% behind in uptime when it should be favoured over PCT, which leads to being 20%+ behind when the downtime-favoured job gets unleashed on ultimate and I get locked out of PFs.

I don't know which BLM player stole your lunch but I think you're being pretty unreasonable here. Even ignoring all utility, I don't have a problem with PCT being better in some situations and BLM better in others. But that's not what we have right now - it's PCT being better in every single situation.

And before you bring up other casters, let's get RDM damage out of the gutter while we're at it.

If we take PCT’s 7.05 numbers then take BLM’s 7.05 numbers and apply the relative buff BLM got in 7.1 (which is about 5-6% accounting for the 1% enochian change) or alternatively do the reverse and add the relative difference in drop between the 7.05 PCT and 7.1 PCT numbers to BLM both scenarios put BLM ahead in rDPS as an average so the desired balance of BLM in rDPS PCT in cDPS is basically already there

PCT was ahead in 7.05 but BLM’s current 7.1 numbers are about the same as PCT’s 7.05 numbers and BLM will have gotten the same average reduction in skill that PCT got

Really the only “egregious” problem with PCT right now is FRU and that basically circles back to “surprise surprise the only job that had an actual niche is ahead in its niche”, it’s basically in the same position as everyone else in terms of the homogenised slop they call savage balance

[Realfoxy]

If we take PCT’s 7.05 numbers then take BLM’s 7.05 numbers and apply the relative buff BLM got in 7.1 (which is about 5-6% accounting for the 1% enochian change) or alternatively do the reverse and add the relative difference in drop between the 7.05 PCT and 7.1 PCT numbers to BLM both scenarios put BLM ahead in rDPS as an average so the desired balance of BLM in rDPS PCT in cDPS is basically already there

PCT was ahead in 7.05 but BLM’s current 7.1 numbers are about the same as PCT’s 7.05 numbers and BLM will have gotten the same average reduction in skill that PCT got

Really the only “egregious” problem with PCT right now is FRU and that basically circles back to “surprise surprise the only job that had an actual niche is ahead in its niche”, it’s basically in the same position as everyone else in terms of the homogenised slop they call savage balance

The relative buff BLM got in 7.1 was not 6% - how did you calculate that?

If you ignore the extra Ley Lines charge, the buff to the job was about 0.7%. Now let's assume that you have a short fight like M1S. Checking the top BLM logs, they kill M1S in a little over 7 minutes with about 40 casts of F4 contributing 12k/30k rDPS.

Ley Lines is 30/0.85 seconds of casting time in 30 seconds, so it gets you 5.3 seconds of extra casts. Your GCD is 2.42, now let's assume that you can perfectly align everything to get 3 extra casts of F4 out of your extra LL. 43/40 * 12k = 12.9, then 30.9/30 = 3% buff from extra LL being VERY generous.

Which means that under the most absolutely favorable conditions possible you could maybe consider it a 3.7% buff, assuming that you played absolutely perfect during a full uptime fight. Fight goes longer? Buff is smaller. Don't align perfectly with the killtime and you only get two extra casts? Buff is smaller. Can't get an extra F4 and have to cast a weaker spell instead? Buff is smaller.

I don't know why people keep insisting on using the 7.1 numbers either. Saying BLM got the same skill debuff as PCT is just pure speculation when we can numerically estimate just how much BLM got buffed by and it's clearly not enough to close the rDPS gap, let alone put it ahead.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if SE did their jobs and actually "brought jobs to PCT's level" like they were saying. Or you know, paid attention to how literally everyone and their mother knew that PCT was going to break ultimate balance.