7.1 Dragoon Changes Complaints

[seolhyun]

i think if i had to remove 2 ogcds i would have preferred life surge being remade into a real defensive and mirage dive being removed with the potency added to high jump to make it feel more impactful.

in general i hope in 8.0 they focus on making jumps more of the focus and make them feel better, possibly make the big ones gcds

[HeavenlyArmed]

Okay, the last time I'm going to engage with you, but the counterevidence is all around you here. Look at how many people have said "I've never posted on the forums before, but came here to add my voice to those who are upset about this." Look at how this is by far the most active English thread about job design. Clearly, there is a substantial "we" who share this opinion. You don't? That's fine, go start a thread talking about how much you love the changes and see how much traction it gets. I'm sure you and the one other person in this whole thread who has defended the changes will have a great time talking between yourselves.

But let's also be clear about how busy the job is and has been. Right now at level 100 the job is less busy than it was at level 90 during Endwalker. During a two-minute burst window you have 9-11 OGCDs to weave vs 11-13. You're pre-Starcross, so you can take off an additional one. At level 90 currently you can get through your entire burst window with only one double weave in some situations and that's totally optimal. If you double-weave everything then half your burst window is spent just doing your basic GCD rotation with no OGCDs. And it only gets slower the earlier you go. I'm not saying the job needs to be as OGCD heavy during burst at level 100 as it was before the change, which btw is exactly +1 OGCD compared to EW DRG. But there were ways that could have been done that don't make those early levels feel as much worse as they do, and I hope that in the near future they opt to revert the Natrond change and instead put in place one of those alternatives.

And for those who want to check my math, here's a pastebin where I list out all of the OGCD usage during two-minute buff windows: https://pastebin.com/4aPke9Ks
Keep in mind that for one-minute windows you also remove Dragonfire and anything related to it as well as Life Surges at 80 and below.

Just wanted to note that I updated the pastebin link in this post, and that actually the job is less busy at 100 than I had originally stated. But while I'm here I'll also show how overall busy DRG is with a different pastebin, this one going over raw APM numbers for all of the physical dps in M4S at some of the fastest clears. https://pastebin.com/T8cWrhCn

[HikariKurosawa]

Just wanted to note that I updated the pastebin link in this post, and that actually the job is less busy at 100 than I had originally stated.

You're actually wrong though. Pre-7.1 it had 15 oGCD for opener and 2 minute burst, now it has 13 after you subtract the 2 nastrond. It's the same amount oGCD as endwalker, only more frequently and during the opener, while also having more button diversity.

https://i.imgur.com/KstklRQ.png

There are limits to how disingenuous people should be when pushing their own weird narratives.

Reading your pastebin is weird too, you say level 70 has 5 oGCD when it actually has 8? What is your logic? 1) Lance Charge, 2) Battle Litany, 3) Geirskogul, 4) Nastrond, 5) High Jump, 6) Mirage Dive, 7) Dragonfire Dive, 8) Life Surge.

Just weird all around.

Even if we exclude buffs for some reason, DT at 100 still has 12 oGCD, yet you say it has 9-11? Just weird logic.

[HeavenlyArmed]

You're actually wrong though. Pre-7.1 it had 15 oGCD for opener and 2 minute burst, now it has 13 after you subtract the 2 nastrond. It's the same amount oGCD as endwalker, only more frequently and during the opener, while also having more button diversity.

https://i.imgur.com/KstklRQ.png

There are limits to how disingenuous people should be when pushing their own weird narratives.

Reading your pastebin is weird too, you say level 70 has 5 oGCD when it actually has 8? What is your logic? 1) Lance Charge, 2) Battle Litany, 3) Geirskogul, 4) Nastrond, 5) High Jump, 6) Mirage Dive, 7) Dragonfire Dive, 8) Life Surge.

Just weird all around.

Have you tried reading? "After buffs" is clearly stated in there as a factor in both EW DRG and DT DRG. And even then you're being disingenuous because you're taking the highest possible amounts, when there will be several burst windows in any fight where you aren't able to double-Life Surge or double-Wyrmwind due to how things align.

[Noox-115]

I mean honestly since DT I see almost no DRGs anymore people I talked to in game pretty much the same thing : Why play DRG anymore when everything fun of it was stripped off especially with other dps doing a better job in both damage overall and buff

other DPS do more damage and bring more to the party sure DRG burst hit hard af but out of their burst they have nothing I see DRG in trial going from 2nd place in agro during their burst to 6 after they are on CD

In EW if you managed to handle your eyes correctly it was a burst every 30 sec it was more fun that way and DRG also had a bit more party utility back then in the end DRG really just feel like a Lancer on Steroids than a badass Dragon Knight but hey took them like 4 years to buff DRK a little bit so maybe in 2030 it will be cool again

[HikariKurosawa]

Have you tried reading? "After buffs" is clearly stated in there as a factor in both EW DRG and DT DRG. And even then you're being disingenuous because you're taking the highest possible amounts, when there will be several burst windows in any fight where you aren't able to double-Life Surge or double-Wyrmwind due to how things align.

You had edited the "after buffs" part in after I had already posted. Either way, DT still has just as many oGCD. Difference is like I said, you get to use them right away instead of having to wait for LotD. Dragoon used to suck badly because of so many weak burst windows and an exceptionally weak opener. Now it's consistently good and busy, instead of being feast or famine with lots of potential to screw up the entire rotation long term over small mistakes.

To each their own at the end of the day, but it's going to stay this way.

In EW if you managed to handle your eyes correctly it was a burst every 30 sec it was more fun that way

????

[HeavenlyArmed]

You had edited the "after buffs" part in after I had already posted. Either way, DT still has just as many oGCD. Difference is like I said, you get to use them right away instead of having to wait for LotD. Dragoon used to suck badly because of so many weak burst windows and an exceptionally weak opener. Now it's consistently good and busy, instead of being feast or famine with lots of potential to screw up the entire rotation long term over small mistakes.

To each their own at the end of the day, but it's going to stay this way.

You are factually wrong, I have presented the numbers to you in plain English, and pastebins can't be edited when the creator is "a guest." I'm not engaging with you in terms of arguments anymore, but if I need to reply to make sure you aren't misinforming people I will continue to do so. The job was previously exactly even with how it was in EW in terms of OGCD usage, and is now two OGCDs less. Those are the numbers, as anyone who is able to count will be able to tell you.

[HikariKurosawa]

You are factually wrong, I have presented the numbers to you in plain English, and pastebins can't be edited when the creator is "a guest." I'm not engaging with you in terms of arguments anymore, but if I need to reply to make sure you aren't misinforming people I will continue to do so. The job was previously exactly even with how it was in EW in terms of OGCD usage, and is now two OGCDs less. Those are the numbers, as anyone who is able to count will be able to tell you.

It's not two oGCD less now though, you are spreading misinformation.

DT 100 in 7.1: 1) Geirskogul, 2) Nastrond, 3) Jump, 4) Mirage Dive, 5) Stardiver, 6) Starcross, 7) Dragonfire Dive, 8) Rise of the Dragon, 9) Wyrmwind Thrust, 10) Life Surge, 11) Second Wyrmwind, 12) Second Life Surge. 10 unique abilities.

EW 90: 1) Geirskogul, 2) Nastrond, 3) Nastrond, 4) Spineshatter, 5) Spineshatter, 6) Jump, 7) Mirage Dive, 8) Stardiver, 9) Dragonfire Dive, 10) Wyrmwind Thrust, 11) Life Surge 12) Second Wyrmwind, 13) Second Life Surge. 9 unique abilities.

If you want to be honest, just do so.

Ah I get your twisted logic. In DT you count GSK as a buff not an oGCD while in EW you count it as an oGCD. So the reality is, with consistent logic, pre-7.1 had +1 oGCD over EW, and now it is 1 less oGCD but 1 more unique ability. Woooooow.

DT 100 7.0: 1) GSK, 2) Nast, 3) Nast, 4) Nast, 5) Jump, 6) MD, 7) Stardiver, 8) Starcross, 9) DFD, 10) RotD, 11) WWT, 12) LS, 13) WWT, 14) LS.

[HeavenlyArmed]

It's not two oGCD less now though, you are spreading misinformation.

DT 100 in 7.1: 1) Geirskogul, 2) Nastrond, 3) Jump, 4) Mirage Dive, 5) Stardiver, 6) Starcross, 7) Dragonfire Dive, 8) Rise of the Dragon, 9) Wyrmwind Thrust, 10) Life Surge, 11) Second Wyrmwind, 12) Second Life Surge. 10 **unique abilities**.

EW 90: 1) Geirskogul, 2) Nastrond, 3) Nastrond, 4) Spineshatter, 5) Spineshatter, 6) Jump, 7) Mirage Dive, 8) Stardiver, 9) Dragonfire Dive, 10) Wyrmwind Thrust, 11) Life Surge 12) Second Wyrmwind, 13) Second Life Surge. 8 **unique abilities**.

If you want to be honest, just do so.

You can't include Gierskogul in the count like that for Dawntrail unless you're counting all buffs on both counts, because that button is now one of your buff applications, in case you missed the changes to how the job works. Once you count all buffs back in, yes it is in fact two OGCDs shorter now. But again, you're going to sit there and call other people dishonest while twisting the information in bizarre ways, and then throw in random meaningless nonsense like "unique abilities" to even further confuse the point. You've never once engaged honestly throughout this entire discussion, and THAT is why we have deemed you a troll.

[HikariKurosawa]

You can't include Gierskogul in the count like that for Dawntrail unless you're counting all buffs on both counts, because that button is now one of your buff applications, in case you missed the changes to how the job works. Once you count all buffs back in, yes it is in fact two OGCDs shorter now. But again, you're going to sit there and call other people dishonest while twisting the information in bizarre ways, and then throw in random meaningless nonsense like "unique abilities" to even further confuse the point. You've never once engaged honestly throughout this entire discussion, and THAT is why we have deemed you a troll.

Getting a bit contrived now aren't you?