Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Shurrikhan]

40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job.

Honestly? Because of scalability. 40% max and current HP is just a (slightly worse, as it can't provide immunity to debuffs it thereby ignores) 40% TBN. Such is better if incoming damage is less than 100% of the tank's normal max HP, worse if it's more. As such, it then becomes better for lower damage densities, worse for greater.

Because casual content tends never to reach such densities, it can basically just be considered altogether and consistently better in said casual content. So then you have a tank or two who are perfectly competitive in the hardest content but then moderately to significantly advantaged in all else. You give anyone else anything to compensate, such as a use case for Clemency or Cover even in a normal composition, and now the difficult content is faintly imbalanced. Because the larger the difference in scaling factors, the less possible it is to balance sustain for both the most intensive and least intensive content. Or, again, for fights differing in bursty vs. sustained damage.

It's not impossible to balance things despite that, but it requires either greater consistency in fight design and/or some definite ingenuity.

Oddly enough, though, probably the best way to deal with disparity between analogs... is to not have any direct analogs, and allow for more frequent and granular layering of defensives, all of which tends to allow jobs to be more distinct. You just can't balance things so tightly while manning only small variations on ~6 otherwise identical levers.

[CKNovel]

SMN/RDM that can raise 3 raises, useful in any content, which has been used in "no heal TOP" to invalidate a Healer mechanic, doesn't invalidate Healers.
BRD that can cast an oGCD Esuna in any content for the extremely rare occasions where it's required, doesn't invalidate the Healers.
WAR's BW that is only overpowered in dungeons against trash packs invalidate healers.

You've vilified Bloodwhetting into a Boogeyman, convincing even yourself and obscuring your judgement.
There's nothing more to add, I've already provided the data that shows the real problem. Even if I had a magic scroll of truth, you wouldn't acknowledge it.

This is why I don't want take part to any more debate about it.

I have a DRK main among my close friends, to paraphrase them "If I want to feel strong I play GNB or PLD. If I want to have FUN I play DRK. I only play WAR if I'm tired or lazy and want to be immortal with no skill." I don't think that's good tank design.

I'm aware fun is subjective but that has to be a very big lie. I can't see anyone having fun just doing 1 2 3 for 50 seconds.

[PyurBlue]

I've already provided the data that shows the real problem.

The real problem has been explained to you and you don't address it. Not acknowledging the issue doesn't make you right. Dungeons are frequently run and not everyone wants them to be trivial filler that you go through on autopilot. BW is far more annoying than caster raises or DPS with support tools. Of course all three can be problematic, but BW has been problematic enough to draw criticism. That fact is why we have this thread. I won't hold it against you that you have your own opinions, but those opinions will continue to be shot down if they are treated as fact.

[Shurrikhan]

SMN/RDM that can raise 3 raises, useful in any content, which has been used in "no heal TOP" to invalidate a Healer mechanic, doesn't invalidate Healers.
BRD that can cast an oGCD Esuna in any content for the extremely rare occasions where it's required, doesn't invalidate the Healers.

The first has seen complaints. Just generally in threads the likes of "Casters being able to raise makes healers too dispensable", not one specifically named Bloodwhetting or about tanks in particular. Because sometimes topics divide.

There's also a large difference between covering a single GCD per couple minutes in the rare fight that can frequently be covered by an Assize, Medica III, or Rapture that would be been required anyways... and making even oGCDs redundant in dungeons.

Again, I've been with you entirely in maintaining flavor for Bloodwhetting, but there's a difference between a flavorful advantage and having up to 5x the output of counterparts, especially while having some 20-50% the output of others across the rest of the kit before that. That's not flavor. That's gluttony.

[dspguy]

Look around these forums. How often are people complaining about a dungeon being a few second slower because people don't Peloton, or Sprint between trash mobs, or AOE properly. How many times are healers told that they should be able to heal with oGCD while doing damage with GCDs? The priority by most players running dungeons is to finish as soon as possible. Extreme/Savage is based on DPS checks. Less heals is more damage overall. Bloodwhetting means is that we finish faster since the healers can DPS more.

I see a lot of players still playing other tank classes. According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR. So, bloodwhetting isn't making other players NOT play other tanks.

There are 94 healers for every 100 tanks. Again, the balance seems reasonable. It isn't like tanks are waiting 30 minutes for a party waiting on a healer. So if healers don't like the situation... then wouldn't the wait be longer?

This just seems like more of an idle complaint for a forum than an actual issue.

[Shurrikhan]

According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR.

This just seems like more of an idle complaint for a forum than an actual issue.

The complaint is that Warrior's glut of sustain --especially where multi-target attacks are frequently possible-- effectively locks us into either dungeon sustain requirements being a joke since, without the others being equally able to meet all sustain requirements despite having only half the sustain producible across AoE pulls and just ~65 to ~85% Warrior's sustain in single-target, Warrior would then be able to leverage what is currently a massive excess of sustain towards rDPS, giving it a significant advantage in party output... or to that inevitable imbalance. And, in the meantime, that getting a Warrior means that one has basically no use for most of their healing actions --no matter how "free-- unless other players make repeated mistakes.

That has nothing to do with Warrior's popularity across the whole game, or even in dungeons alone, where the inability to make good use of its full kit is as much a turn-off for those who enjoy what tasks and challenges remain to tanking as such as it is an attractor for those who prefer something more easy mode.

[dspguy]

I understand the complaint very well. What I'm saying... it doesn't matter.

The results are:

• Players are playing other tanks still
• Healers are still playing healers
• Parties are clearing dungeons/raids/etc

Even if BW is OP, it hasn't changed any of that. If people are backing out of parties because there is a GNB/DRK/PLD instead of a WAR, then there's an issue. Until then, this is just something to complain about with no actual "harm" done.

[PyurBlue]

Even if BW is OP, it hasn't changed any of that. If people are backing out of parties because there is a GNB/DRK/PLD instead of a WAR, then there's an issue. Until then, this is just something to complain about with no actual "harm" done.

If someone's experience is negatively impacted, harm has been done in some form. Feedback doesn't need to be limited to only the most severe problems, and classifying a problem doesn't have to be limited to the criteria you've listed. Feelings on BW are also caught up in the wider opinion on the state of healing, which is hard to dismiss as a small nitpick. Many healers feel like the game isn't in a good spot and self sufficient tanks do nothing to alleviate that feeling.

[dspguy]

If someone's experience is negatively impacted, harm has been done in some form. Feedback doesn't need to be limited to only the most severe problems, and classifying a problem doesn't have to be limited to the criteria you've listed. Feelings on BW are also caught up in the wider opinion on the state of healing, which is hard to dismiss as a small nitpick. Many healers feel like the game isn't in a good spot and self sufficient tanks do nothing to alleviate that feeling.

Technically, someone's experience could be negatively impacted if they play a healer and the tank forgets to hit tank stance. Or AFKs.

What a low bar you are suggesting.

I suppose SE should address that? Have tank stance always on. And if a player AFKs, the squadron/trust algorithm takes over and plays the job for them.

And it doesn't change the fact that if it was a problem... there would be much longer queues for tanks and DPS if healers didn't like their job to the point where they play a tank or DPS instead. But they aren't.

On my checklist earlier:
- When people quit parties because the tank is not a WAR
- Healers don't queue
- People can't clear dungeons

Then there is a problem worth doing something about.

[Connor]

snip.

I mean, if you want to go tell people the 8953 posts in the HealerStrike thread all amount to ‘nothing’ then thats on you, but idk man I think they might disagree lol. I’d say the fact that many people even bothered to post about it suggests there absolutely is an issue, and it has as much to do with tanks as it does healers themselves