Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Carighan]

I'm giving you a way to convince me.

Nobody except you needs to do that. This is like when talking to a flat-earther: Reality does not care for your silly requirements to be convinced and your inability to reconcile your predetermined (mis-)understanding with it.

[Supersnow845]

The answer is very simple.
In WoW you could do this and after the nerfs you can't anymore.
In XIV that would just make the sustain from good to be impactful enough to worthless in content that matters but still makes healers mad in dungeon and maps.

Honestly, if you want to prove me wrong it's very simple.
You go in Ktisis Hyperboreia or Vanaspati, dungeons that can't be overgeared synchronized level and solo and you solo the instance while doing as much pulling as possible and without dying once.
It should be possible and you shouldn't die even once, right? You're not pulling as much as in the video correct? So it should be a braindeadbreeze, yes?

Record footage of yourself doing that on Warrior, prove me wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LwKKzmJhxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHZTHldvH3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwejQM7mUOA

Next question

[Rithy255]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LwKKzmJhxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHZTHldvH3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwejQM7mUOA

Next question

How is that proving them wrong they are literally level 100 in the video??? I'm sure a healer could solo a EW dungeon at level 100.

[Supersnow845]

How is that proving them wrong they are literally level 100 in the video??? I'm sure a healer could solo a EW dungeon at level 100.

If you specifically want synced then here, that has like every dungeon solo synced

https://www.youtube.com/live/2kAmQpV...l5M5pmduk3UMMf

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain, you arent soloing it even unsynced on a non tank because FPS don’t have the sustain and healers don’t have the damage

[Rithy255]

If you specifically want synced then here, that has like every dungeon solo synced

https://www.youtube.com/live/2kAmQpV...l5M5pmduk3UMMf

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain, you arent soloing it even unsynced on a non tank because FPS don’t have the sustain and healers don’t have the damage

Wait until you watch Solo Only videos on ARR dungeons being solo'd by a Warrior before they get any sustain outside of their combo (and potions).

I even remember pretty much doing the first half of the 56 dungeon without a healer or any dps with heals (smn/rdm) thehealer left and it took a long time for a new one to join... this was ON PALADIN before clemency is available, I don't know if you can recognize that sustain doesn't actually play a massive role into why healer feels bad to play.

I don't know what you're actually trying to prove by saying warrior can solo dungeons... yeah and? a tank doing a challenge run of taking all day to solo a dungeon doesn't have anything to do with why healers are bad. This is way beyond not optimal to do.

I don't even want to defend blood whetting here, i think the cooldown makes wall to wall boring for the job, Theirs some valid criticism that the cooldown is too strong, but then you post about how most sustain on tanks is bad.

[CKNovel]

Because the entire context of the discussion you are ignoring involves CK specifically asking us to show them a video of tanks soloing dungeons because the believe the WOW sustain nerf is totally different to modern 14. If you want to discuss different aspects of the tanks sustain problems that’s a different discussion

I admit, I'm surprised someone managed to do it.
And yes, if you pay attention, those are two complete different situation, Bloodwhetting isn't the only actor, kiting is also involved as well as Holmgang, Rampart and Vengeance and we're far from pulling the whole dungeon.
But I'm convinced enough to ask for a War sustain nerf, they can start by lowering Shake it off, Damnation and Equilibrium HoT and add a 60s on Holmgang.

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain

Careful now, you wouldn't want me to ask you to back your claims by showing me the same feat on PLD and GNB as well, yes?

Nobody except you needs to do that. This is like when talking to a flat-earther: Reality does not care for your silly requirements to be convinced and your inability to reconcile your predetermined (mis-)understanding with it.

Except the original claim is that Bloodwhetting is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed, which I haven't seen proof of it.
The only proof I've seen is that WAR's sustain kit is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed.
My claims is that it's overpowered but fine as it is.

[BabyYoda]

Warrior can lost.2 other mitigation or healing skill and it will be playable as a high tier tank

[Alice_Rivers]

I've said before, I'll say it again, there's no need to go nerfing everything into the ground because one or two jobs in one role are too powerful. FF14, or any mmo for that matter, doesn't need esports balancing. PCT doesn't really bother me, SMN bothers me because it sucks to play but that isn't PCT's fault. DRK bothers me a bit because it's damage output doesn't reflect it's lack of sustain vs other tanks, that is mitigated by tuning PLD and WAR but not fixed by it and I would prefer see DRK get a damage buff rather than a sustain buff but I'm not a tank.

Similarly as I've said before, the tank sustain problem in FF14 is a two part problem, there's the part where WAR is completely self sufficient and PLD ranges from mostly self sufficient to actually self sufficient and there's the part where damage in dungeons is way too low - especially tankbusters and stacks. When a level 100 WHM with only Oblation and Temperance mit in play can take a tankbuster for 77k (see image, don't mind the deaths, people went into the previous mechanic with 3-5 vulns each) I think that tankbuster is woefully inadequate - In what way is that a threat to a tank?

So I suggest that the most egregious of tank self-sustain should be curbed. BW could be reduced either to one heal per GCD or I think preferably, since fates exist and I think some high end content has adds(?), limit it to three targets. I'm not entirely sure what to do with SIO, maybe half the regen and/or tie it to WAR's gauge? Could do something similar with PLD's shield - Cover and whatsit are both gauge abilities, why not add the shield and half the heal? That would help prevent these two jobs covering entire raidwides without affecting their shields and give WAR at least a trade-off against their dps. Simultaneously, increase damage in dungeons by 50-100% (this could be spread across higher damage values and attack frequency), especially for tankbusters, maybe up those by closer to 150-200% non-tanks should never survive them and tanks should actually have to mit them to live, healers would also then have to care about a tankbuster. I'd also point to previous suggestions of mobs inflicting status effects, etc since that would also make life more interesting.

Also boss autos during mechanics should make a return.

[CKNovel]

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

Actually, not a lot. Sustain is massively overrated and always falls a lot in overhealing, if you trade the healing for mitigation or increased HP it would just make Warrior even more powerful.
What I would agree on is that WAR's Shake it off HoT is unnecessary. In high end raiding it can represent 30% of heal generated by WAR and it shouldn't be its role.

Agree on Holmgang, I don't think I've seen anyone defending it, even Warrior mains agree for it to be nerfed.

There's no need to go nerfing everything into the ground because one or two jobs in one role are too powerful.
Similarly as I've said before, the tank sustain problem in FF14 is a two part problem, tank self-sufficience&lack of damage.
So I suggest that the most egregious of tank self-sustain should be curbed.

Boss autos during mechanics should make a return.

Shake it off shouldn't regen in my opinion, the heal&shield on cast are perfectly enough.
The trade SIO for Beast Gauge would mean the ability isn't pressed. We have Clemency as a perfect example, it's very strong but a DPS loss, therefore it's never used.
In WoW, the trade works but that's because Protection Warrior is always at the risk of overcapping rage, generated by so many RNG elements, which is not a thing in XIV but I believe we could manage to get something similar, thought that's another debate.

You could move the lifesteal effect from Bloodwhetting to Inner Release and have Bloodwhetting increasing max HP instead.
I personally believe it wouldn't change the Warrior at all in dungeon and would just make it even more powerfull in high-end content but that's a start.

[Alice_Rivers]

Shake it off shouldn't regen in my opinion, the heal&shield on cast are perfectly enough.
The trade SIO for Beast Gauge would mean the ability isn't pressed. We have Clemency as a perfect example, it's very strong but a DPS loss, therefore it's never used.
In WoW, the trade works but that's because Protection Warrior is always at the risk of overcapping rage, generated by so many RNG elements, which is not a thing in XIV but I believe we could manage to get something similar, thought that's another debate.

There is that issue, disappointing as it is, I think having to make choices like that enriches the experience. But I do think that's a reasonable change to SIO.

You could move the lifesteal effect from Bloodwhetting to Inner Release and have Bloodwhetting increasing max HP instead.
I personally believe it wouldn't change the Warrior at all in dungeon and would just make it even more powerfull in high-end content but that's a start.

I'm glad you mentioned this as it lead me to look at the WAR job guide and some of those tooltips are very long. On topic though, BW appears to be a linear upgrade from Raw Intuition, in which case moving the heal to Inner Release would presumably make RI just 10% mit? And still sharing a cooldown with Nascent Flash which I think a reasonable change would be to make it only heal the target rather than the target AND the caster. Or we could use the Clemency model so the WAR gets 50% but I think better to make it just heal the target (I don't see anything that suggests a WAR can't cast it on themselves).

I think it would be an improvement though, to make it 1200 healing per 60s rather than 2400 per 60s, BW also makes more sense as a mit and/or shield than as a heal.