Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[CKNovel]

I've noticed that every time the discussion around Bloodwhetting comes up, you seem to go out of your way to try and shut down the discussion..

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.
I've also backed up my claims with real numbers, proof and actual facts to support my arguments. I also don't support holmgang, you seems to have a very selective memory for someone who can remember posts from the last 10 years. Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5.

Stop dodging solid arguments and twisting narratives for a second.

[Supersnow845]

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.
I've also backed up my claims with real numbers, proof and actual facts to support my arguments. I also don't support holmgang, you seems to have a very selective memory for someone who can remember posts from the last 10 years. Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Post 5.

Stop dodging solid arguments and twisting narratives for a second.

To be fair while I’m not getting into your argument with lyth a lot of your (and others) suggestions for how to not change BW but also “fix” healers basically amounts to making healers do something else while the tank continues to actually do all this healing they are currently doing which is not exactly a terribly popular solution in healers minds

I still fail to see how it’s ego on the healers part to not want to he shut out of their own role by tanks

[PyurBlue]

I've proposed solution to keep BW as it is while making healing engaging and tried to shut down nerfs just to save the healer ego, not discussions.

Repeating this is only proving that you're not interested in even understanding why people are upset. Healer ego, whatever that is, isn't part of the discussion. BW is poor design because it fights against how the game is intended to work.

[BabyYoda]

Repeating this is only proving that you're not interested in even understanding why people are upset. Healer ego, whatever that is, isn't part of the discussion. BW is poor design because it fights against how the game is intended to work.

BW isn't the only thing that needs a rework but tanks in general should be less homogenized..
40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job..
Tanks need a revamp kit to be less homogenized.. to the point where switching to other tank require analysis and learning the job.

[PyurBlue]

BW isn't the only thing that needs a rework but tanks in general should be less homogenized..
40% MT for all tanks
Why not 40% max hp for warrior instead? To enforce identity to the job..
Tanks need a revamp kit to be less homogenized.. to the point where switching to other tank require analysis and learning the job.

BW is far from the only problem that tanks and healers have, I agree on that point completely. It's still very hard to ignore a skill that singlehandedly trivializes a role that is supposed to be integral to the game in some of the most commonly run content though. Homogenization needs to be tackled but balancing is going to be important when doing that so that otherwise gameplay will be hollow.

On the topic of diversifying tanks, max HP increases would work well with reasonable amounts of self healing. If WAR took this as the core of its identity I think it would work well. It also has the potential for interesting synergy with healer skills. Increased HP means that there is more value from full heals like Benediction and heals that scale with percent like Essential Dignity get a large HP buffer to work with which could make maximizing their healing amount easier. Some intimidation effects might fit too. Think of WAR reducing incoming damage by dishing out damage and "terrifying" enemies with persistent attacks.

[CKNovel]

This is another attempt to move the goalpost, I've simply answered to Lyth saying "Being skillfull as a tank offers nothing".
I won't bite the bait, if you want to read my arguments you're free to check the other thread.

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing yet all fingers are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing in dungeon against pointless packs that will die anyway.
Nerfing a job won't make yours funnier, you'll still spam the same button when you'll wait for something to happen. Healers are doomed as long as XIV remains a number game.

[Supersnow845]

This is another attempt to move the goalpost, I've simply answered to Lyth saying "Being skillfull as a tank offers nothing".
I won't bite the bait, if you want to read my arguments you're free to check the other thread.

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing yet all fingers are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing in dungeon against pointless packs that will die anyway.
Nerfing a job won't make yours funnier, you'll still spam the same button when you'll wait for something to happen. Healers are doomed as long as XIV remains a number game.

If you can’t see the difference between a red mage costing massive damage and MP to raise or a bard who has a single oGCD with a rather long CD and whatever BW is doing to the healer role like the other person says you obviously don’t actually care about the role imbalance because that’s a hilariously inept comparison

BW (and tank healing in general) warps the game at all content levels, tanks shouldn’t be self sufficient in savage but at this point they functionally are, as much as you think it wouldn’t actually being able to heal you WOULD make my job more fun. Because It means I’m pressing my HEALING buttons and not broil. BW isn’t just overpowered in dungeons (though it’s so hilariously overpowered in dungeons that it’s a complete joke) it’s disgustingly overpowered in raids as well, why do you need 1600 potency of healing on a 25 second CD, that’s not a tank CD, that’s a whole ass healer CD except the healer would have it on 5 times as long of a CD

[PyurBlue]

Nobody screams at RDM for ressing or BRD to cleansing

Because RDM res doesn't invalidate healers, nor does BRD cleansing.

are pointed to BW for having a overpowered healing

Very rightly since it means healers don't have to heal.

I don't think it's hard to see at all, but if you want a deeper explanation RDM res at least comes at a DPS and MP cost. They don't freely raise players just by doing their rotation, and since they deal more damage than healers their priority is to keep DPSing and let the healer raise anyway. Even if that wasn't the case, res isn't a constant action and it isn't the basis of the healer role. BRD cleanse is on a cooldown and can only be used on one person. More importantly, cleansing is far, far less common than healing which is what healers should be doing most often outside of damage. BRD provides a small supplementary effect that comes into play only in a handful of cases and still doesn't negate the presence of healers because BRD is overwhelmed as soon as more than one player has a status effect.

BW on the other hand full heals WAR with no opportunity cost and makes the bulk of healer abilities (heals) worthless since the WAR, which is intended to be the focus of dungeon healing, almost never needs external heals. BW is the equivalent of "auto res all party members in range when dualcast is granted" or "Apply Warden's Paean effect to all party members while songs are active", except it's worse than that because it doesn't automate a niche healer task, it automate's the purpose of the healing role.

Ignoring broken skills instead of fixing them is how you kill fun.

[Alice_Rivers]

RDM/SMN having raises and BRD having a 45s cooldown cleanse is nice flavour for each job that every so often can take a minor load off a healer, emphasis on minor, none of these things sidelines or replaces a healer. Similarly healers having party dps buffs or afflatus misery doesn't detract from dps jobs. Bloodwhetting does not fall into this category, there is nothing minor about Bloodwhetting, it doesn't help a healer - it sidelines the healer.

PLD having clemency, doesn't harm the healer role, PLD's (1200 heal potency) blade combo by itself isn't harmful to the healer role, holy sheltron's regen I find more questionable that is a lot especially paired with 15% mit and if I had my way I'd probably cut both the blade combo and sheltron regen down by about a third so it's a nice bump during the two minute cycle and a good additional mit on what is already a really short cooldown - HS is more limited by PLD's gauge than it is by it's internal cooldown.

I have a DRK main among my close friends, to paraphrase them "If I want to feel strong I play GNB or PLD. If I want to have FUN I play DRK. I only play WAR if I'm tired or lazy and want to be immortal with no skill." I don't think that's good tank design.

[CaedemSanguis]

With all due respect, I've cleared raid content on WAR and DRK for much longer than either of you. I don't need to submit my curriculum vitae to post in here. We're also talking about role design rather than job design. Feel free to point out what competitive edge you think I would gain out of seeing these changes. If anything, I'm telling you outright that DPS offers significantly more raid value, and that I want this to change so that tanks can offer more impact.

If you still have something of substance to offer on the discussion points at hand, by all means. The current design of tanking is poor and offers little in the way of skill expression. Progressive inflation of mitigation and sustain toolkits is trivialising encounters. The focus should be on making button presses more meaningful and more nuanced. If anyone can do it, it's not worth doing. The status quo needs to change.

well you clearly never did HC/WP

if you did, then you're have very very weird take, but why not idc

"The current design of tanking is poor and offers little in the way of skill expression" I agree, but for both tanks/dps and healers

"Progressive inflation of mitigation and sustain toolkits is trivialising encounters" -> you clearly never did any criterion savage or ultimates in tanks to say this, it's a fact

"The focus should be on making button presses more meaningful and more nuanced" I agree, but it's the same for either tank-dps-healers, FF14 gameplay is "stand and let things resolve" not "adjust to what happens with your classes tools" like in wow, hopefully this will change with the 7.2+ encounters and 8.0 gameplay rework, but it will NEVER be on the same level as wow because of the shitty ff14 netcode

Even during HW, tanks/dps/healers were far from having "skill expression", hell even in WoW there is hardly a "skill expression" cause it's not a pvp game like LoL/Tekken or Counter Strike