Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[wereotter]

Oh no, healing isn't fun. Let's make tanks less fun as well.
Nah. Good luck though.

by this logic, healing would be more fun if it just got potency buffs.

I don't think that healers are having more fun now that number go bigger since last expansion....

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, it is possible for healers to out damage a tank in dungeons already.

If both the tank and healer are dealing their full damage potential, only WHM has any shot at that, iirc. Yes, tanks do less damage than indicated by their potency due to an output reduction embedded in their damage formula while healers do 30% more than their potencies indicate due to Maim and Mend, but even then the potency differences are enough to make up for that.

I don't see a bump in ST damage for healers being much of an issue per se, I guess it just depends if they'd be happy merely doing more damage with the same 2 skills or not.

They wouldn't. It'd simply reduce the rDPS reward for replacing the healer with a WAR/PLD, such that doing so would be for the fun of trying something nontraditional rather than because it's literally faster anyways.

Another consideration, however, would be to add more damage support in to their kits. AST provides a decent amount of rDPS, for example. If instead of a direct damage buff they gained more support ability for increasing damage, maybe even a larger change that only healers have rDPS support function, it'd be easier to balance those outlying ranged phys and ensure healer viability at the same time.

You don't have to remove Litany, Voice, Finale, Standard Finish, Technical Finish, Searing Light, Embolden, Brotherhood, and the rest just to allow AST more (or more interesting) rDPS. You need only give it and ensure the healers are still balanced well against each other and roughly against the other roles thereafter.

While I'd prefer a bit more variance in their effects and wouldn't even mind replacing LB and most offensive raidbuffs with a revised form of LB (where we maybe start with a bar's worth of Regiment Points or Technique Points or what have you and can spend it on the opener and roughly every 90-150 seconds at varying %effectiveness and/or duration), but I feel having raid buffs among more than just healers is better for the game than limiting them, and I see no reason more why non-ASTs should have raid buffs than a non-healer. Heck, the first raid buffer was solely Physical Ranged (now an Addle-variant, Second Wind, and rez away from being any other sort of Ranged).

[whiskeybravo]

but I feel having raid buffs among more than just healers is better for the game than limiting them, and I see no reason more why non-ASTs should have raid buffs than a non-healer.

It was more or less just a thought experiment I was pondering. There are plenty of complaints about the various capabilities between ranged jobs, and to a lesser extent some melees, which apparently make it difficult for SE to balance. Like, logically it makes sense for dps to provide dps buffs but I just wonder if, in the larger scheme of things, shifting those aspects to another role (I think tanks or healers could work in this regard) we would end up in a better place.

In the example I was thinking of, something in a 3 min window fits with the pace of 4 player instances, while in 8 mans the healers could (I would like to assume) take turns for each 2 min window. For a tank example, it would work similarly but probably require giving healers back the vast majority of responsibility for party mitigation. (which I suppose could be done anyways)

It's just more about the idea that if healers wanted to do more damage it doesn't necessarily need to be in the form of direct damage increases. That and if they're worried about being left out, or realistically on the verge of it, well then give them something that would result in the party being at a major disadvantage without them. The buff would have to be strong enough to dissuade bringing a dps instead of a healer, probably in combination with a base damage bump to healers to help meet that threshold.

[Shurrikhan]

It's just more about the idea that if healers wanted to do more damage it doesn't necessarily need to be in the form of direct damage increases.

That's fair, and is certainly. possible. I just don't really see offensive raidbuffs, specifically, as thematic for any but SCH and AST, is all -- not because I want raidbuffs constrained or anything else, but simply because it feels to me like giving WHM or especially SGE those buffs would make no more sense than giving them to SAM, VPR, or BLM.

[Post]

If tanks did less damage than healers, we'd probably see lots of solo tank parties because thanks to aggro and TP being gone, MP being basically unlimited and Swiftcast being even shorter you can just invuln the first tank swap and sacc the next. Just rez the tank and let em pick up the boss while it probably stands there not auto attacking the entire time the tank was down.

Wouldn't even need to replace the offtank with a 3rd healer, just get another dps in there to really capitalize on the damage gain from dumping a tank. We used to do this even before tanks were unstoppable, lots of the old fights were easier with one tank due to the damage gain, the difference was then the unavoidable damage bosses dealt was higher and more constant, and non healers could heal less, so their extra security they provided was more meaningful.

[whiskeybravo]

That's fair, and is certainly. possible. I just don't really see offensive raidbuffs, specifically, as thematic for any but SCH and AST, is all -- not because I want raidbuffs constrained or anything else, but simply because it feels to me like giving WHM or especially SGE those buffs would make no more sense than giving them to SAM, VPR, or BLM.

True enough. Nobody really likes it when they get stuff taken away, even if it ends up being a wash in the final results. Others have mentioned turning various things in to Role Actions to help alleviate balancing restrictions and that's not a bad idea either. Either way there's no 1-shot solution to all this, some combination is going to be required and hopefully we can throw enough stuff at the wall to end up with something decent.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

It's really funny that healers are meant to have exclusive gameplay elements like healing/regening the tank during big damage and generally healing the party. But because the job design team is so bad at their job this now doesn't exist anymore lmao

I think everyone keeps clipping the most important point of that quote.

When a tank is off-tanking....they are generally doing NOTHING in high end encounters except waiting for the tankbuster - I don't see healers solo-healing savages (yet); so generally higher tank damage allows off-tanks to contribute.

[Alice_Rivers]

When a tank is off-tanking....they are generally doing NOTHING in high end encounters except waiting for the tankbuster - I don't see healers solo-healing savages (yet); so generally higher tank damage allows off-tanks to contribute.

I would be down for this, I'm pretty sure I've seen instances where raid bosses auto attack both tanks at the same time, P10 had twin tank towers, P11 had off-tank aoe buster which was neat. but yeah, it's be nice to see the off-tank have more engagement between busters/swaps than just being a backup healer. It doesn't even have to be direct tanking stuff, it could be switches or adds or something where you have to prevent the main boss gaining some kind of effect and soak damage in the process. Better yet, what if that mechanic had some kind of phase attached to it so you could adjust the fight by doing the off-tank mechanic or not?

[Ramiee]

I don't see healers solo-healing savages (yet); so generally higher tank damage allows off-tanks to contribute.

It's cus they're getting replaced by PLDs looking at that week 2 M4S clear.

[AddictedToWitches]

Damage is not really the issue with tanks/healers right now