Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Magikazam]

Tanks aren't "more effective" healers

Indeed, but they are effective enough to bypass the need of a healer. The existence of Vulne stack, dps some time getting killed after a simple mistake and dps being able to rez and 3/4 tank having access to almost on demand healing just create a situation where the only difference between bringing a healer or anything else (assuming no healing check mechanic) is the lost of a Healer LB and a slightly smaller ammount of mistake the party can make (and good chances of having a smaller ammounts of rez user in the party)

[Rithy255]

Indeed, but they are effective enough to bypass the need of a healer. The existence of Vulne stack, dps some time getting killed after a simple mistake and dps being able to rez and 3/4 tank having access to almost on demand healing just create a situation where the only difference between bringing a healer or anything else (assuming no healing check mechanic) is the lost of a Healer LB and a slightly smaller ammount of mistake the party can make (and good chances of having a smaller ammounts of rez user in the party)

A lot of this has to do with the really strong Mitigations.

Sustain, can be targeted in a few ways, Although I think the wrong direction would be to remove sustain from the "short cds", I do want short cd's to only have one mitigation effect such as a 20% damage reduction instead of two stacked effects it feels odd. Jobs like PLD I'd just Remove Magic attack healing. (keeping knight's benediction), maybe add combo healing to royal authority and last hit of atonement for like 200 potency, Warrior I think needs more intense changes, GNB could just do with some slightly lower healing potencies (like 700-600 on excog), DRK could honestly do with a small sustain buff lol.

I really think it is a design issue if a small amount of sustain is all it takes to "make tanks immortal" Currently I do agree that it should be tuned down, but that doesn't make tanks having healing tools a bad thing in my eyes, I just think Tanks in general need adjustments to all their "Survival" tools, which includes reducing mitigations and sustain but shouldn't mean removing sustain from my perspective.

[Magikazam]

A lot of this has to do with the really strong Mitigations.

Sustain, can be targeted in a few ways, Although I think the wrong direction would be to remove sustain from the "short cds", I do want short cd's to only have one mitigation effect such as a 20% damage reduction instead of two stacked effects it feels odd. Jobs like PLD I'd just Remove Magic attack healing. (keeping knight's benediction), maybe add combo healing to royal authority and last hit of atonement for like 200 potency, Warrior I think needs more intense changes, GNB could just do with some slightly lower healing potencies (like 700-600 on excog), DRK could honestly do with a small sustain buff lol.

I really think it is a design issue if a small amount of sustain is all it takes to "make tanks immortal" Currently I do agree that it should be tuned down, but that doesn't make tanks having healing tools a bad thing in my eyes, I just think Tanks in general need adjustments to all their "Survival" tools, which includes reducing mitigations and sustain but shouldn't mean removing sustain from my perspective.

To me tank having sustain is a bad thing since like I already said, with the lack of sustained damage to the party, the only one you end up healing is the tank, and changing mob damage wont change much since rn tank can easily overheal themselves on top of you know, like you said, strong mitigations.

[Rithy255]

To me tank having sustain is a bad thing since like I already said, with the lack of sustained damage to the party, the only one you end up healing is the tank, and changing mob damage wont change much since rn tank can easily overheal themselves on top of you know, like you said, strong mitigations.

Sustain has been common, even in ff14 tanks have always had some level of sustain, Warrior had massive amounts of sustain for a very long time ect.
Sustain and healing tools have been common with tanks, this is why you get life steal tanks or tanks who might be able to help with supporting the party that includes some limited healing tools

Damage should never be so low that some sustain on tanking jobs becomes a problem.

[Magikazam]

Sustain has been common, even in ff14 tanks have always had some level of sustain, Warrior had massive amounts of sustain for a very long time ect.
Sustain and healing tools have been common with tanks, this is why you get life steal tanks or tanks who might be able to help with supporting the party that includes some limited healing tools

Damage should never be so low that some sustain on tanking jobs becomes a problem.

Agains, It don't matter how much damage monster do since Tank can easily overheal themselves. The only way to make it so healer has to actively heal the tank is to make it so monster do so much damage they need to turn into healbot

[Rithy255]

Agains, It don't matter how much damage monster do since Tank can easily overheal themselves. The only way to make it so healer has to actively heal the tank is to make it so monster do so much damage they need to turn into healbot

I really don't know how to respond to such a argument because it assumes that any level of sustain on tank will make it so healers will either not need to heal or that healers will become a "heal bot".
It seems really odd to me that we can't reasonably see some levels of sustain being okay on tanks and being able to be balanced around how much damage the fights have. I honestly thought healers were complaining that they don't "heal bot" enough but apprently adding more damage to fights isn't a solution because now you'll be healing too much.

I'm honestly really tired with these all or nothing arguments, It honestly feels like even if I say "yeah lets reduce tank sustain" it's still not enough, removing it fully doesn't even make sense to begin with.

I'm genuinely trying to be reasonable with this discourse of "healer bad tank good" but it feels like the only solution for some people is to remove all forms of healing that isn't on a Healer, Rightfully tanks should get a "nerf" but I don't get why its 100% targeted at the self healing, if you tuned down the numbers it's reasonable that fights would have enough Damage so that it's on both the Healer and the tank to keep the tank alive.

I'm honestly starting to think is that healers want tanks too feel miserable and are against any role having some form of healing, which if we're going to make it so "dps only dps" "tank only tank" healer only heal" then sure, I'm against that formular but be consistent, if only Healers can heal then healers/tanks shouldn't deal damage (like 10% of a DPS), Tanks should hold aggro and be the only ones allowed to mitigate, which to me makes a boring game.

I dunno i've even said I want them to greatly nerf sustain and Mitigation, I'm just confused why people think it's only a tank sustain issue.

[Supersnow845]

snip

tank self sustain is the most egregious of the tank balancing issues. PLD (who I’m just going to use as the default example because we’ve discussed this before) gets a mitigation on a tiny CD (functionally about 25 seconds) that has a 500 potency regen attached to it and also gets a 400 potency heal on average every 5.5 GCD’s. This isn’t remotely insignificant. If we convert that to healer potency on average a PLD is healing themselves for around 2.4K healer potency per minute, that’s the same potency that a WHM is putting out using all three of their solaces per minute. This isn’t just a “the ranks are just getting a little healing why do the selfish healers want to take that away”, this is the tanks putting our comparable healing to the healers in self sustain. Remember half the healer kits are built around single target healing they don’t use. Do you want half your kit to be useless because another role does your job better than you

Tanks shouldn’t be completely helpless at maintaining their own health but nor should they put out comparable self healing to the healers themselves and remember unlike healers who often share resources with their AOE and single target heals (aetherflow, lilys addersgall) and sometimes have to resort to GCD healing which affects their damage everything a tank gets it gets completely for free. If you want to do another role you should pay a cost for it. If im playing “off tank” as a SCH I can only do it by standing there spamming adlo on myself and doing no damage at all. If you want to play off healer you should also pay a cost, that’s why passive healing on HS is terribly designed and clemency is well designed. HS should just be a mitigation, if you want the heal then pay a DPS cost for it

The only people who think the tanks should be completely helpless are people who think healers wanting their role to feel meaningful is a personal attack on tanks, healers simply don’t want tanks completely replacing our role and losing none of their 30% more damage to actually do it