Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[MikoRemi]

Why swap damage instead of just raising healer damage?
It's a logic I'm confused with, why do healers believe that in order to make healers fun, you must nerf the tanks?

In my opinion:
-Healers should have at least a similar DPS to tanks. I don't see a problem with healers having more DPS than tanks.
-Healers should have more than restoring HP in their kit, integrate debuff cleansing in their oGCDs heals with Esuna being an emergency.
-Healers rotation should mixed healing and damage with similar abilities liike Assize you can either keep to heal or use on CD for damages. Or similar to Lilies, make the GCD heal not a DPS loss.

I believe we face a problem as long as we have healers sitting between the two chairs of "Healers is a heal" and "Healers is a green DPS". It's necessary to choose one and assume the choice, don't make healers pure heal if there's nothing to heal.

It's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.

Pretty sure if Healers were called Support there wouldn't be as big of a deal, but much like Tanks are blue DPS, Healers are green DPS since DPS is god in FF14. You can't really convince these people though, and they'll just have to be met with disappointment when this terrible idea isn't implemented, just like tanks in general got even more sustain options in DT in general.

I will say though, I hope DRK players and Healers get some love, but with the ideas both sides spew out(nerfing everything fun when SE very rarely nerfs jobs), I'm not surprised there's little traction there.

[Nezerius]

It's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.

The way I'm interpreting the OP, is that it's more of a rhetorical question, rather than a mentality of "nerf everything fun!". It's to put tanks into the healers' shoes, and if the hypothetical situation would affect how much fun they'd be having. Your almost instant "no" answer makes it all the more obvious that tanks would not enjoy having their dps output swapped with the healers.

While you've mentioned that making adjustments to one role at the expense of another isn't the right the thing do, that's essentially what they've been doing with tanks. The increasing amount of self-sustain & party-wide system given to tanks directly impacts the amount of sustain that would otherwise have been provided by the healers. To add an example to this: earlier expansions had people challenge themselves by only bringing 1 healer, and getting the most out of the party-wide sustain provided by said healer. Fast-forward a few expansion, and tanks have gotten to the point of providing this type of sustain to the point of being able to replace that 1 healer with either another tank or another dps.

You're pointing out the "poisoning of the well post that just screams "I'm out of ideas, someone else give me an idea" ", but don't seem to realise that healers have been fighting for role improvements for several expansions. If tanks were in a similar situation, I'm sure you'd eventually start running out of ideas too. And to drive this point home, I'll refer to Supersnow845's signature. That's no exaggeration, it perfectly sums up how healers have been handled over the past 5-6 years, and telling them that 8.0 will be shaking things up will likely make at least half of the healers roll their eyes. They've heard the "wait for the next expansion" way too often.

[Bobby66]

The way I'm interpreting the OP, is that it's more of a rhetorical question, rather than a mentality of "nerf everything fun!". It's to put tanks into the healers' shoes, and if the hypothetical situation would affect how much fun they'd be having. Your almost instant "no" answer makes it all the more obvious that tanks would not enjoy having their dps output swapped with the healers.

While you've mentioned that making adjustments to one role at the expense of another isn't the right the thing do, that's essentially what they've been doing with tanks. The increasing amount of self-sustain & party-wide system given to tanks directly impacts the amount of sustain that would otherwise have been provided by the healers. To add an example to this: earlier expansions had people challenge themselves by only bringing 1 healer, and getting the most out of the party-wide sustain provided by said healer. Fast-forward a few expansion, and tanks have gotten to the point of providing this type of sustain to the point of being able to replace that 1 healer with either another tank or another dps.

You're pointing out the "poisoning of the well post that just screams "I'm out of ideas, someone else give me an idea" ", but don't seem to realise that healers have been fighting for role improvements for several expansions. If tanks were in a similar situation, I'm sure you'd eventually start running out of ideas too. And to drive this point home, I'll refer to Supersnow845's signature. That's no exaggeration, it perfectly sums up how healers have been handled over the past 5-6 years, and telling them that 8.0 will be shaking things up will likely make at least half of the healers roll their eyes. They've heard the "wait for the next expansion" way too often.

End of the day you are right I made this post because yes many did make a claim that tanks should do less damage than healers, and while I personally have no issue with it I did make the claim that I do not think that would go over well with tanks, but at the same time I acknowledge something has to give and the current status quo cannot be maintained so yes I posed the question to tanks since I was curious how tank players would respond.

It's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.

Pretty sure if Healers were called Support there wouldn't be as big of a deal, but much like Tanks are blue DPS, Healers are green DPS since DPS is god in FF14. You can't really convince these people though, and they'll just have to be met with disappointment when this terrible idea isn't implemented, just like tanks in general got even more sustain options in DT in general.

I will say though, I hope DRK players and Healers get some love, but with the ideas both sides spew out(nerfing everything fun when SE very rarely nerfs jobs), I'm not surprised there's little traction there.

I mean the heart of the question is would you be fine if tanks were replaced for speed kills? On paper I bet you will say yes because the idea of replacing a tank in FFXIV is not really possible. That is a part of the issue healers currently face and I do agree on paper it is silly that at the very least for a small subset that the ideal comp is one that does not have a healer role because tanks and dps have enough sustain to meet the healing requirements. I mean I think we can all agree that is a tad silly when you take a moment to think about it no? As others have said if healer and tank damage was swapped tanks would still have a place in speed kills as would healers. It is an overall win no?

[MikoRemi]

I mean the heart of the question is would you be fine if tanks were replaced for speed kills? On paper I bet you will say yes because the idea of replacing a tank in FFXIV is not really possible. That is a part of the issue healers currently face and I do agree on paper it is silly that at the very least for a small subset that the ideal comp is one that does not have a healer role because tanks and dps have enough sustain to meet the healing requirements. I mean I think we can all agree that is a tad silly when you take a moment to think about it no? As others have said if healer and tank damage was swapped tanks would still have a place in speed kills as would healers. It is an overall win no?

First of all, you're looking at such a minor subset of the community doing healerless clears, when that's not what DF and PF do as standard. Why isn't it a problem that all DPS basically can't clear then if this is such an issue? Why isn't it more celebrated that there's an all healer can clear ARR thing if that's the case? Why is it that in order to even do a healerless clear, we need specific setups of certain tanks and dps to basically pseudo mimic healers as a fun challenge which as I've set, is a very minor subset of the community. You'd have some grounds if it was the standard in all parties commonly, just like PLD and MNK in HW were utterly doomed.

Secondly, spare me the rhetoric. It's a question that hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, because if were going by SE's design as is, they'd more than likely buff the damage of healers rather than swap them, but while tanks have an actual rotation and healers don't, that's part of why the rotation is there. Would it be great for healers to have more buttons? Sure, that would be a much better thing to bring up than trying to nerf people which SE very rarely do, and usually it's something very minor anyway, hello RPR's Arcane Crest.

Nothing good comes with trying to screw over other jobs as such. Blame SE for not making healing as fun as it could be, but don't ruin other peoples fun. If you don't like healers not being included in very super specific instances, join a party that...likes having healers? Which is the majority of the playerbase?

You can try to tell me all you want that tanks are ruining healers fun, I can disagree with how many healers prefer having me around over your local DRK. If you wanna keep asking that question though then I guess keep going? Time better used elsewhere really, but if you think you'll get further than the people in EW who tried to beg for self sustain nerfs for a long time, look how it is in DT and ask if maybe you should pursue another avenue instead of something that goes counter to SE's design.

[Bobby66]

First of all, you're looking at such a minor subset of the community doing healerless clears, when that's not what DF and PF do as standard. Why isn't it a problem that all DPS basically can't clear then if this is such an issue? Why isn't it more celebrated that there's an all healer can clear ARR thing if that's the case? Why is it that in order to even do a healerless clear, we need specific setups of certain tanks and dps to basically pseudo mimic healers as a fun challenge which as I've set, is a very minor subset of the community. You'd have some grounds if it was the standard in all parties commonly, just like PLD and MNK in HW were utterly doomed.

Secondly, spare me the rhetoric. It's a question that hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, because if were going by SE's design as is, they'd more than likely buff the damage of healers rather than swap them, but while tanks have an actual rotation and healers don't, that's part of why the rotation is there. Would it be great for healers to have more buttons? Sure, that would be a much better thing to bring up than trying to nerf people which SE very rarely do, and usually it's something very minor anyway, hello RPR's Arcane Crest.

Nothing good comes with trying to screw over other jobs as such. Blame SE for not making healing as fun as it could be, but don't ruin other peoples fun. If you don't like healers not being included in very super specific instances, join a party that...likes having healers? Which is the majority of the playerbase?

You can try to tell me all you want that tanks are ruining healers fun, I can disagree with how many healers prefer having me around over your local DRK. If you wanna keep asking that question though then I guess keep going? Time better used elsewhere really, but if you think you'll get further than the people in EW who tried to beg for self sustain nerfs for a long time, look how it is in DT and ask if maybe you should pursue another avenue instead of something that goes counter to SE's design.

I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths and still had a decent time in terms of speed killing with mistakes and deaths mind you. That is really weird design when you think about it. It is certainly getting the point that what is enjoyable for us, may not be best for the overall game.

I would not like it if my ENTIRE preferred ROLE was sidelined even in small subset because it is legit quicker to cut me out EVEN with MISTAKES. I would be kind of salty. Even if they brought the healer damage up even if it matched tanks in practice, it probably would still be a net gain to not take a healer cause their update would not be as high as tanks if tanks mit and sustain was still enough to meet the healing requirements in conjunction with others sustain.

As stated it really did not seem like it was a challenge per-se because it was cleared with deaths and mistakes but was still a fast clear. Sure healers are needed for majority of groups that is fine, but even so when the exclusion of an entire role proves to be quicker than some standard comps. At that point you got a design problem that is being created by a lack of something or something just being too strong, or both.

[MikoRemi]

I was on your side of the fence for a long time but comments from Snow did get me thinking, why is it fair that sidelining healers in speed runs not for the sake of a challenge because it was not exactly harder the group made a bunch mistakes and had multiple deaths

Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

[Bobby66]

Speedruns are speedruns, people will do crazy things to achieve them. Just remember the #deleteMCH era where a group infamously farmed LB just to get the ninja to spam LB's to do speedkills faster than having a physical ranged in the party which is a 1% stat loss among other things. It's also just not a very common sentiment anymore. That's how you push limits to see how far you can push a game. It's interesting, it's sometimes bizarre, but it is what it is.

Generally though even during that period of time in SB? Yeah that wasn't commonplace, MCH's were still allowed in most parties, usually if the PF meme'd by locking RDM or MCH, it was a trap anyway.

That being said, Healers have their own problem of mainly having little to do when there's nothing to heal, which yeah, there's just going to be times where there's not much to heal like how there's not constant tankbusters firing off every single auto. If you'd rather waste time though on a rhetorical question though on a very small piece of content, and not considering things like deep dungeons/extreme/savage/ultimate/eureka content/criterion/etc. especially for general players and not hyperspecific groups with acute knowledge and skill of the game to execute it, then you do you. Again, tried to warn people when forums wanted to nerf tank sustain by saying it wasn't going to happen for months, and now we got even more of it.

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

It is not irrelevant, it shows that at the core SE has a design problem that needs to be address from both sides of the isle. Tanks are just as much a part of this equation and issue as healers are. Tanks and healers across the board in many games have always been a give and take. For them to adjust healers that allows each style of play to see some light something has to give on the tanks end. Maybe not damage, but something in their kit will have to be readjusted. Fair conversation is to see what exactly the tank community could see as a compromise as to what needs to be adjusted on their part. For the health of the game overall tanks have to be brought in line overall.

[Supersnow845]

It's not my battle to fight, but I'd rather see the healer types actually try to think of something better and not waste their time on pointless rhetorical bait questions let alone focusing on the 0.1% of players wanting to have fun by doing something really out of the ordinary. Unless PF/DF at large starts doing healerless runs, this specific issue is irrelevant. Not so much in HW with PLD's and MNK's where they were actively locked from parties generally, THAT was an actual problem. Also refer to the P8S incident where certain jobs during that week were undesirable because the DPS check and job DPS disparity was absolutely ridiculous.

Again, up to you. I just feel bad the discussion could be going in much better directions, but that's up to you lot.

I gave you 5 possible solutions to this problem, explored them all and then explained why I’ve had interactions where tank mains have blown back that particular solution for x y or z reason and the only response you gave was a vague “this is better than asking thereotical questions and I can kinda see 3 and 5 working but won’t elaborate or explain how I’d deal with solution 3 or 5’s criticisms also wait for 8.0” then that was it

You aren’t even interested in discussion of actual solutions because you refuse to see that tank mains will blow back every solution for whatever reason and because of that “don’t harm tanks to fix healers” fundamentally doesn’t work

[Reimmi]

This is a horrible choice that makes tanks less fun rather than addressing the actual issue of healer design in the game