Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Bobby66]

So I was wondering would tanks be okay if say healers did more damage than tanks, and tanks did around the same damage healers do right now so healers are not sidelined in the speed running meta?

I ask because I said overall this would be a messed up nerf, but was wondering if others felt the same.

Edit: I agree adjustments do have to be made but I just don't see what really could be done that really solves the core issue healers have atm which is engagement that does not ripple into lower end content.

Personally I think having such wide access to in combat raises does add to trivialize content at times, and I do think overall tanks do have far too high sustain. Just idk if adjusting that would bolster the healing role per-se or just make it more stressful for many players because that is a sudden responsibility shift that has not been present in the game for a long time.

What suggestions does the tanking community have that could increase the overall enjoy and engagement with healers without impacting tanks that much.

Tanks getting nerfed is not suffering. Nerfs happen all the time. In every game. Throughout all time.

And as you are surely well aware, particular tanks are overtuned for all content. Yes, all content across all difficulty levels. It's beyond a balance problem. It's actually a joke.

And someone also generously provided an example of WoW devs achieving this very thing without destroying the game. They just heard the feedback and agreed and said enough.

Honestly, to achieve healthy balance, the tanks do require a nerf in some aspect.

We can see the trinity as 3 different aspects: Damage, Healing and Mitigation. Healers are proficient in both healing and mitigation, therefore they deal less damage, this is fine and understandable. DPS specialise in dealing damage, therefore they have limited healing and mitigation, this is also understandable. But now we come to tanks, they're proficient in mitigation and they have some healing and damage, therefore if they want to dip further into healing, they have to either give up some damage or mitigation.

That's just the baseline for healthy balance in a trinity game.

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

Some views from the thread, what would tanks do to address these concerns, or be willing to give up for the sake of balance.

Edit: Sorry Super forgot to add your suggestion.

[MikoRemi]

No. Make healing more fun instead. Thanks.

[Supersnow845]

No. Make healing more fun instead. Thanks.

Bobby made this thread based on a suggestion I made in the other thread

I suggested this as a bandaid fix to the problem of healerless clears being a damage gain because tanks do so much more damage than healers. Making healing “fun” would only solve this issue if “making healing fun” involved making it so under absolutely no circumstances can the tanks actually replace the healers healing

[MikoRemi]

Oh no, healing isn't fun. Let's make tanks less fun as well.
Nah. Good luck though.

[Supersnow845]

Oh no, healing isn't fun. Let's make tanks less fun as well.
Nah. Good luck though.

Okay then let me propose the same question I always propose

How would you suggest fixing healing without negatively affecting tanks because right now half of the tank mains I talk to seem to think being a more effective healer than the healer is a core tenant of tank gameplay

[Rithy255]

I feel in a perfect world tanks & healers would be doing the same amount of damage (70% of a DPS) but this would include healers having more importance on damaging cooldowns and having a more impactful toolkit.

Okay then let me propose the same question I always propose

How would you suggest fixing healing without negatively affecting tanks because right now half of the tank mains I talk to seem to think being a more effective healer than the healer is a core tenant of tank gameplay

Tanks aren't "more effective" healers, Gunbreaker isn't going to keep a party alive, a Paladin can only do so much healing, it has one AOE heal which is 400 potency which 400 potency on tank is way smaller then a healer having 400 potency due to maim and mend passive Healers will always have Infinite amount more healing options, even when you talk about "effective healing" it brings up Mitigation which I believe we both agree tank Mitigation is too strong.

I'm not against reducing sustain and mitigation values (which outside warrior I think Mitigation is the main issue here), but it seems like you don't want tanks to have any cooldowns with sustain/healing

The only case where this is actually true is Warrior inside a AOE pull.

[MikoRemi]

As I've said many times which you've forgotten apparently, I'm no healer main so I wouldn't talk on the subject. I can say for sure that nerfing others which SE aren't fans of doing is counterintuitive since it's just putting the lack of fun on others, not to mention it's an alteration of numbers which is an incredibly lazy suggestion.

Just like Kougan doing an all healer run of ARR, that shouldn't even be taken as a bad sign, that's a pretty cool sign. Let me know when healers are actively not being taken in PF's such as PLD and MNK in Heavensward, actively not taken by the majority of players rather than a very small subset of players who have to carefully plan everything to do healerless clears. I can tell you I don't see many parties doing TOP runs with no healers like I rarely see that being commonplace in any other form of content, most players can't even tie their shoes together let alone do a healerless run.

Since you wanna say you have some authority on the matter of healers which I've seen you post around so much, I'll hope you can find something more creative than some silly bandaid fix which is less a bandaid and more pouring salt on an open wound, because if that's what's constituting as a fix, no wonder SE isn't going to take any of this seriously. Will hope good things come the healers way for something more fun for general content other than Extreme and onward, because seems like unlike the average forum poster, I don't really like ruining peoples fun just to make my gameplay more relevant. Look how well EW posts for WAR's downfall have gotten. I loved reading those when DT came out and will look forward to more.

[Magikazam]

What suggestions does the tanking community have that could increase the overall enjoy and engagement with healers without impacting tanks that much.

If you want healer engagement then you need to make it so tanks don't have as much self sustains as they have right now. The way content is designed make it so most of your ''healing'' gameplay is just keeping the tank alive. The lack of sustained damage just made it so you don't really have to heal any dps unless they don't have enough hp to survive their next screw up.

Like it hard to feel meaningful in most content on the game when Nascent flash exist on a 25 sec cd with no ressources cost to it.

[Supersnow845]

“I’ve seen your posts around a lot”

(Conveniently ignores I’ve been offering solutions to this problem for literal years)

I’m not an authority. All I’m saying is people going “no, I won’t elaborate further” adds nothing to the discussion. People still haven’t ever shown me a viable path that doesn’t infringe on tanks but fixes healers. People just seem to stop at the first half then act like it’s a complete answer.

“Don’t infringe on tanks” isn’t a complete answer to how to fix healers

[MikoRemi]

Neither is infringing on tanks themselves. And I've seen you around for over a year, I don't live on the forums though so I ain't digging up every single post. I will pray those other solutions aren't anywhere near this level of silliness though.

I will just say if anyone even thinks this would work as a solution and that SE would be mad enough to do such a thing, it's pure silliness. And asking someone who isn't a healer main how to elaborate further wouldn't help. If you wanna figure out how to improve rocket science, you ask a rocket scientist pure and simple.

That being said, you don't have to be a healer main to know that hurting other jobs doesn't help your case. Hasn't worked for DRK players, ain't gonna work here either. Figure out how SE is taking the game regardless of your feelings which way, then figure out what aligns close with the vision while getting what you want. Nerfing ain't it chief and if you want to hear about it, then pray come up with a better working solution than what goes against the flow.

Personally I'm more interested with how 8.0 changes things since that's when its slated to really shake up the foundation, would rather not go to the HW era of balance which nearly tanked the entire raid scene or the disparity in dps like EW which caused memes like P8S, hoping for a better balance but as of now, the general kits are rather solid except for the "unique" exceptions like Dark Mind or Cure I existing in general that I hope gets addressed sooner or later. I'll keep enjoying myself meanwhile and hope for the better rather than for the worst~.