Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Crafoutis]

Jobs operate relative to their alternatives and their relative balance can absolutely have an impact on the game. An overpowered job necessarily impacts others (making content more difficult than intended if the OP job is tuned around and other jobs are taken instead or easier than usual if that job is stacked). An underpowered job that content is nonetheless tuned around necessarily impacts others (denying them a need to make full use of their kits / optimize appropriately).

"If you're not presently maxed in job Z, you are not allowed to voice concern for how job Z may impact jobs A-Y" is not a good look, even if we remove the hierarchical vibes there.

No, if you don't play the roles at max level you can't actually understand the difference between the classes at max level in order to lend an equally-representative voice to the discussion which seeks to impact design change. And as of the time I'm writing this, you do not have the tanks at max level.

I can't begin to describe my disinterest in your 'vibes'.

[Shurrikhan]

No, if you don't play the roles at max level you can't actually understand the difference between the classes at max level in order to lend an equally-representative voice to the discussion which seeks to impact design change. And as of the time I'm writing this, you do not have the tanks at max level.

This alt does not have every tank at max level yet, no. That said...

By all means, tell me why basic math --let alone across abilities unchanged from the previous expansion and raw damage unchanged from across any other tank-- would require having personally hit each button oneself despite the plethora of vids, vods, and logs available from which to see exactly how their use has played out among players of varying skill levels (including even the top 1%)?

This reads like just another "it's only patch notes; you can't possibly understand how it will play" except in this case the encounters, too, are fully known, making the offhand dismissal make even less sense. One does not need to have hit Bloodwhetting on each alt in each Savage fight (let alone played each also on every other tank) to know Warrior's sustain output or its sources of contribution in DT endgame or, more relevantly, the content types actually being discussed (where Bloodwhetting is most absurd, dungeons).

(And that's ignoring that the same positions are held also by people with every tank leveled to 100.)

[CKNovel]

Why are you bringing up things besides dungeons, isn't PyurBlue only talking about dungeons.

Because only taking dungeons to ask for a nerf is cherry-picking.
Also if you absolutely want to limit yourself to dungeons: Criterion dungeons.

The game is designed so DPS don't need healing unless they are one failed mechanic away from death or if there a rare unavoidable party damage. That just how it is. The only one taking constant damage is the tank so he the only one who need constant healing.

So change the design? Which is my suggestion from the beginning.

[ApolloGenX]

So, for <11%, soon to be <9%, of the game's lifetime (as we already know how it will function in TWW). Because they realized how dumb that was and quickly corrected.

As should be done with any heal tuned for a single-target but then allowed to scale linearly with target count. Such as EW-DT Bloodwhetting (whereas Nascent Flash in ShB was extremely strong but at least had a workable scalar).

(Also, no, Wild Growth was not. It both had a CD and, more importantly, was a HoT, making it incomparable to CoH or any other truly spammable heal.)

Yeah, WG wasn't a problem because it was a HoT... but other healers almost burned the forums down over CoH. (and no- WG did not have a CD- but clipping heals didn't really get you anything, so they added the CD and front loaded it)

The point was that as powerful as it was, it wasn't fun, that's all. Power and fun are not the same. It led to some great discussions on what is fun to press vs what is not. Basically, mindlessness isn't fun... that is kind of where all healers in FFXIV are now.

Anyway, it has been nice talking- I canceled again. Maybe I will come back when DT is skippable or healing is fun again. Best wishes.

[Shurrikhan]

Because only taking dungeons to ask for a nerf is cherry-picking.

"Your left foot has suffered severe frostbite. It's nearly rotten off."
"Why you cherry picking, doc? The rest of me is fine, so I'm fine."

Again, the suggestion is solely to have the single weird-in-that-its-scales-in-an-absurdly-overpowered-fashion skill scale in the way that all other reasonable skills scale. Orogeny does not hit for Upheaval's damage per target. Decimate does not hit for Fell Cleave's damage per target. Ixochole does not heal for Durochole's heal per target. Why should Bloodwhetting, and Bloodwhetting alone, heal for its ST value per target?

Dungeons are where the discussion landed only because you and others refused to acknowledge that AoE events occur in the game despite, easy content or no, their being frequent in the overall most frequently run instanced content in the game (dungeons). But the core is still just that: AoE scaling. Which is independent of the skill's ST scaling and does not even necessitate a nerf, however justified that too may be, to Warrior's typical sustain in basically-single-target-only content.

[CKNovel]

Again, the suggestion is solely to have the single weird-in-that-its-scales-in-an-absurdly-overpowered-fashion skill scale in the way that all other reasonable skills scale. Orogeny does not hit for Upheaval's damage per target. Decimate does not hit for Fell Cleave's damage per target. Ixochole does not heal for Durochole's heal per target. Why should Bloodwhetting, and Bloodwhetting alone, heal for its ST value per target?

Read what's below you just quoted. Criterion dungeon are fine.
Ironically, that's cherry picking again but this time it's my argument.

[Magikazam]

So change the design? Which is my suggestion from the beginning.

Can't do that since the past 10 years of contents been designed around that. They would need to rework every boss fight, trial an raid.

[Shurrikhan]

Read what's below you just quoted. Criterion dungeon are fine.
Ironically, that's cherry picking again but this time it's my argument.

How big a part does mass AoE play across the playtime of Criterion Dungeons? Again:

Dungeons are where the discussion landed only because you and others refused to acknowledge that AoE events occur in the game despite, easy content or no, their being frequent in the overall most frequently run instanced content in the game (dungeons). But the core is still just that: AoE scaling. Which is independent of the skill's ST scaling and does not even necessitate a nerf, however justified that too may be, to Warrior's typical sustain in basically-single-target-only content.

And what's more, Bloodwhetting/Nascent (+Stem the Tide & Stem the Flow) is still much stronger than Holy Shelltron (+Knight's Resolve & Knight's Benediction), Heart of Corundum (+Clarity of Corundum & Catharsis of Corundum), or TBN + Oblation in Criterion's 3-mob pulls. The fact that it often enough contributes less than the likes of HS's or HoC's total sustain outside of those AoE pulls only makes clearer that its linearly scaling its AoE potential off its ST potential is problematic (in the same sense that, say, the likes of DRK's miti kit is problematic -- either unbalancing the job in certain fights [see even just DT's first Savage fight] or constraining fight design by forcing each encounter's tank-mitigatable damage to follow an exact proportionality within specific timings).

[CKNovel]

Can't do that since the past 10 years of contents been designed around that. They would need to rework every boss fight, trial an raid.

It only concerns dungeons.
You don't even need to rework them all, just update the current expert dungeons and apply the recipe to future dungeons.

Dungeons are where the discussion landed only because

Adapt. Dungeons.
You don't cut a fish's fin because the aquarium is too small for all fishes, you get a better aquarium. In Criterion Warrior isn't broken, stronger yes but not broken, which was the basis of nerfing Bloodwhetting.
Healers designs suffers from SQEX just focusing on the number game then having ridiculous low, unevenly spread numbers in dungeons. They removed debuff cleansing without replacing it while they should've expanded upon it.

Nerfing Warrior won't fix the core issue and will just be a placebo, that's why I'm adamant to not nerf Warrior.

[PyurBlue]

Nerfing Warrior won't fix the core issue and will just be a placebo, that's why I'm adamant to not nerf Warrior.

Balancing WAR won't fix everything but it's a start. There is no danger of a placebo either, healing a WAR is vastly different from other tanks in a negative way, and trying to fix that by redesigning what isn't broken makes no sense. Dungeons pulls are built around a single target taking damage. There is nothing wrong with that, it has worked in the past, and it helps to give dungeons their own feel. WAR is the obvious problem so the path of least resistance is to address the problems it has created.