Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Shurrikhan]

No strawman, please, I have said none of these words and neither implied them in any way.

Unless you referred to yourself in the third person earlier and expect to be referred to also as such even in a direct reply, it should be clear that I wasn't referring to you, but rather the poster ("he") whose content we were both talking about.

A closed choice is a nice manipulation tactic.

A set of choices presented in a manner closed than it actually is would be a manipulation tactic, yes, but so would a set of choices presented as more open than they actually are. In this case, those choices are (to the honest extent of my understanding) exhaustive among what could/would be changed by dungeon tuning. Presenting anything more than them as relevant (insofar as seems to be remotely reasonable) would be (to my understanding) manipulative conflation.

If you can show why those potential outcomes are not exhaustive, by all means. But don't pretend that focusing on just what outcomes would actually be affected when discussing the effects of change is inherently reductive; by that token, it is at least as arguable that any discussion outside of what would be changed would be a separate issue and/or mere conflation.

I want to keep the current status while restoring the trinity in dungeon, I've provided enough materials to do so.

Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

it would be super nice if the non-WAR players would stay in their lane.

Is this a false flag, or are you really outing yourself (and by association, your job or a portion of its other users) as a whole new level of entitled / unconcerned for broader game health? These are comments on broader balance, not what feels good or what niche optimizations are available in a given Ultimate.

Jobs operate relative to their alternatives and their relative balance can absolutely have an impact on the game. An overpowered job necessarily impacts others (making content more difficult than intended if the OP job is tuned around and other jobs are taken instead or easier than usual if that job is stacked). An underpowered job that content is nonetheless tuned around necessarily impacts others (denying them a need to make full use of their kits / optimize appropriately).

"If you're not presently maxed in job Z, you are not allowed to voice concern for how job Z may impact jobs A-Y" is not a good look, even if we remove the hierarchical vibes there.

[CKNovel]

Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Just look at 24 man raid, healing is still an insanely boring chore yet Warrior kit isn't in that specific situation where Bloodwhetting is broken.
Yet it's still boring to heal and the trinity barely matters! Why is it the case?

Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons, maps and fate that regardless if you have a Warrior or not.
Bloodwhetting shouldn't be nerfed because the complains comes from a kneejerk reaction and would encourage nerf mentality for something so niche.

I do wonder if people here would be so happy if the shoe were on the other foot. If, for example, holy stun didn't have limited uses making all tanks and other healers inferior picks for party compositions in normal content. I mean, that's fine. Right?

Go ahead.
Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.
DPS would complain if you stun the mobs without letting them nicely pack first.
Healers would complain because they're spamming a single button.

[PyurBlue]

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons

One of the most commonly run content. You're right that WAR is only overpowered in a specific situation, yet that hasn't stopped it from becoming a source of annoyance to players. Seeing a Warrior tank when queueing into a dungeon is pure disappointment. Fixing this won't make healers perfect, but it will make them better.

Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.

At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

[CKNovel]

False, you would also be the dude who has to keep the tank alive unless you want a party wipe.

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

That remark makes me believe you completely missed the point.
Tanks fits 2 roles, they are DPS and they are tanks.

In Dungeons, Normal mode and 24 man raid, tank buster deals miserable damages. Yet do we see a tank strike?
No, because tanks still have another role to fill.


Go back to my 24 man raid argument where Warrior isn't broken yet healing is still boring. I haven't seen a counter-argument yet.

[Terhix]

(...) where Warrior isn't broken (...)

Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.

[Alice_Rivers]

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

So the tank is not part of the party?

Edit: Suggested reading.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580157

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580074

[CKNovel]

So the tank is not part of the party?

It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.
Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.

Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.
The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.
Also why the broken state of BW isn't what makes healing boring.

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

[Terhix]

The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.

That's not what the debate is about, that is just your position.

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

I think I scored everything there was to score, but let me score once again that you say that balance on trash packs doesn't matter, so every time you say you care about balance in dungeons you're lying.

[Alice_Rivers]

It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.

I've not disputed this, indeed I've agreed that it is an area to be addressed, in addition to tank balance.

Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

I say "cool, we have healing as effective resist, neat idea", but that's what it should be. It should not be the tank not only negates 100% of damage taken but also overheals itself regularly. Similarly, when any job can solo clear group content (which the exception of Deep Dungeons that have achievements clearly showing they're designed to be solo-ed) synced, that is a problem that needs to be fixed. If all the tanks can do it then all the tanks need to be adjusted in addition to the content because I don't see healers or dps solo-ing synced content. If they were I'd be advocating for that to be fixed.

Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.

Why should the game only be interesting during boss/raid fights? I think it's a good idea to return to the days when packs could be threatening, then they could spit out vulns or have major damage attacks for tanks and healers to be aware of.

[Magikazam]

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

Keeping the tank alive mean mobs don't agro the squishy party member and that keep them alive. You can't really make the dps take more damage in a meaningful way with how the fights in game work since the past 10 years. The only way to make healing meaningful is to make it so Tank can't heal themselves so easily.

The game is designed so DPS don't need healing unless they are one failed mechanic away from death or if there a rare unavoidable party damage. That just how it is. The only one taking constant damage is the tank so he the only one who need constant healing.