Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

[sylphlands]

no its not you clown its great get good

Genuinely not trying to be combative here, but...why? I haven't seen defenses of Dawntrail outside of brief "it's great actually" rebuttals, and there are some very detailed critiques in this thread and many others. This isn't a skill issue, it's a writing issue.

[Remiferia]

Koana has an entire following due to the outside (Sharlayan) innovations he's brought to Tural, and one of the main "moral" points the story sums up is the benefits of combining tradition with innovation...

And yet all of his solutions to each test in the Rite of Succession were met with a prevailing sense of 'Okay, that'll work and you can proceed, but we much prefer Wuk Lamat's solutions of not innovating at all and working with what we already have'. The Hanu Hanu chief among them. They are given an innovative solution for their reed-growing issue that could presumably work in any and all circumstances and yet they are enamoured by Wuk Lamat's genius idea of dancing in front of the flowers and hoping that'll do the trick.

His only real mention in his hometown of Shaaloani is that of skepticism towards the future of industrialisation, and there was potential for a notable subplot using Heritage Found as a possible endgame of innovation and the mutation of culture that isn't explored in favour of giving Wuk Lamat yet more screen time to ramble about smiley faces.

The 'most correct' solutions in the RoS were always the ones that didn't innovate on traditions at all. Pelu Pelu started rooting for Wuk Lamat because she showed a savviness in their trade culture; Hanu Hanu preferred her idea of repairing the float; her biological father wink-wink nudge-nudged her into making the correct traditional dish and also understanding the culture behind it. Koana effectively gave up and endorsed Wuk Lamat on the basis that she better understood the people of Tural despite the fact that he not only wasn't disqualified but also kept her in the running by saving her life.

We go to Solution Nine where they have mixed culture with innovation and spend time talking about how unnatural Regulators are and how they shouldn't be using them. The raid tier is leading directly towards providing an excuse to abandon regulators altogether because Wuk Lamat is never wrong and we can't annex them properly while such an 'icky' cultural difference exists between the two.

But yeah, a few people walking up to Koana when he walked out in the crowd is enough of a foundation to sell me on the moral of the story being at all cohesive with how they got there.

[OgruMogru]

Y'know the scene in Living Memory where we have to eat the completely flavourless popcorn and pretend to like it in order to finish the quest? How the citizens just stare blankly at you until you give them the exact response in the exact positive tone they were looking for? Being critical of DT feels like that scene playing out in real time. Life imitating art.

[All_Nonsense]

Also, I'm not sure you understand what "metrics" or "empirical data" mean, because both of those actually point in the positive direction for DT. Seriously, just open your worldview beyond select places of the internet that agree with you, and it can be eye-opening.

I'm starting to think that the only way for glazers to defend DT at this point is to either build strawmen with their misunderstood notions of critical comments, or by saying "it's good wahhhh it's a new story you don't get it you're stupid."

I said "compared to all other expansions." The "data" I am referencing is the (everywhere) lowest ratings of any expansion (by both critics and playerbase) including ARR as recorded as an average. Just because the ratings are over 60% you're saying that's a "positive" for the game. It is as much a positive as passing a class with a C or a D is. Sure, you pass, but you're not impressing anyone.

As for looking "beyond the parts of the internet that agree with you," I believe you're talking about Youtube (tons of critical videos and comments, tons. How have you not seen them?), Twitter (shitshow. Absolute shitshow, but the art is good lol), Steam reviews (LMFAOOOOOOOO), and what else now? Reddit? (again, another shitshow, arguments abound, lots and lots of critical reviews). Why don't you take the time to make a long, detailed, articulate post demonstrating why the story is so good and counteract all the threads that literally do exactly that but detailing why the story was bad? I'm yet to see a proper, detailed counterargument. You can be contrarian, I'll even change my mind if you're persuasive enough, but you gotta do more than "well you're mad because you're not the main character." That's just lazy and disingenuous

[HighlanderClone]

The 'most correct' solutions in the RoS were always the ones that didn't innovate on traditions at all.

The developers wanted to shoehorn in a story about how traditions and cultures should be respected and have hidden strengths and a raison d'etre.

But you're right that throughout the story it has gone so far that we take objectively more inefficient solutions because it's "tradition" over Koana's innovative solutions. The tradition is not merely important. It's portrayed as superior to science.

That kind of mentality is also why we have people eating traditional herbal remedies for tuberculosis and then dying because they refuse to see a doctor.

A more mature story will explore the tension between tradition and innovation, how innovation harms culture and how culture stops people from living a better life. There is no objectively superior choice when it comes to tradition and innovation. But of course, the story is written for 4 year olds so we can't have any of that nuanced discussion as it will fry the two remaining neurons of the intended audience.

[sharknado]

This is fun to listen to:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJiYJXd4vaE
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fdIcjviRFo

Deep voice released on the MSQ

[BigBoom550]

The developers wanted to shoehorn in a story about how traditions and cultures should be respected and have hidden strengths and a raison d'etre.

But you're right that throughout the story it has gone so far that we take objectively more inefficient solutions because it's "tradition" over Koana's innovative solutions. The tradition is not merely important. It's portrayed as superior to science.

That kind of mentality is also why we have people eating traditional herbal remedies for tuberculosis and then dying because they refuse to see a doctor.

A more mature story will explore the tension between tradition and innovation, how innovation harms culture and how culture stops people from living a better life. There is no objectively superior choice when it comes to tradition and innovation. But of course, the story is written for 4 year olds so we can't have any of that nuanced discussion as it will fry the two remaining neurons of the intended audience.

A mature story would have had the Reed-eaters reveal that they had a stockpile, most of this was BS, and they wanted to see how the candidates handled it. Koana's solution, and Wuk's solution, are both valid.

Koana addressed the immediate, objective problem. What he missed was that the festival isn't just about the reeds, but about the communal traditions, the unity the festivities bring about. It's half about the food, half about the people who eat it.

Wuk would have been commended for finding the right solution, but chided for her immediate focus on 'We need to make them smile!'. She was focusing on the emotional reaction and not the reason for it. Sure, she was later *told* it was a magical focus, but she didn't draw the connection herself.

The challenge proctor reflecting that between the two of them they'd make 'One fine Dawnservant' would even be foreshadowing that they end up ruling together, forming the two halves of the whole that's required.

But, like you said, the story was almost written for someone who has one braincell pinging around like the DVD screen saver. G'raha's moment was when it hit a corner.

[Yuella]

A mature story would have had the Reed-eaters reveal that they had a stockpile, most of this was BS, and they wanted to see how the candidates handled it. Koana's solution, and Wuk's solution, are both valid.

Koana addressed the immediate, objective problem. What he missed was that the festival isn't just about the reeds, but about the communal traditions, the unity the festivities bring about. It's half about the food, half about the people who eat it.

Wuk would have been commended for finding the right solution, but chided for her immediate focus on 'We need to make them smile!'. She was focusing on the emotional reaction and not the reason for it. Sure, she was later *told* it was a magical focus, but she didn't draw the connection herself.

The challenge proctor reflecting that between the two of them they'd make 'One fine Dawnservant' would even be foreshadowing that they end up ruling together, forming the two halves of the whole that's required.

But, like you said, the story was almost written for someone who has one braincell pinging around like the DVD screen saver. G'raha's moment was when it hit a corner.

Which is the point of the story. None of them is good enough individually to be Dawnservant. Both Wuk Lamat and Koana realized this at the end of the contest and Wuk Lamat invited Koana to be co-dawn servant.

[Midare]

Which is the point of the story. None of them is good enough individually to be Dawnservant. Both Wuk Lamat and Koana realized this at the end of the contest and Wuk Lamat invited Koana to be co-dawn servant.

One of them quit the feat because of "muh sister" and the other told the starving birds the equivalent of "have you tried dancing, lmao?"

Admittedly... as someone who lives in south america, this feels accurate to how governments work here.

[BigBoom550]

One of them quit the feat because of "muh sister" and the other told the starving birds the equivalent of "have you tried dancing, lmao?"

Admittedly... as someone who lives in south america, this feels accurate to how governments work here.

I was going to say...

Wuk's lack of technical or analytical skill never really bit her in the challenge. Koana had the development to realize that yeah, he wasn't the most emotionally available person. Wuk didn't. It makes it really come across as pity.

Plus like... asking Koana literally during the coronation? Was she even sure he was going to be there? She talks about empathy, tells him she's going to ask the PC to stay and be part of her administration, but doesn't bother to try and tell him 'listen, you're important too'? She doesn't think that might come across a bit... insulting?