Viper Changes are good, actually

[Zakon]

It gets 7 double weaves every 2 mins, 4 of which have extra long GCDs and all of which can be freely used at any point in the fight as long as you don't overcap. You press the same 2 buttons every time.

DRG has 6 consecutive forced double weaves in their 2 min + one extra long oGCD with animation lock, all on a normal 2.5 GCD. You press a total of 5-6 different buttons. Also, you're doing your 10-step GCD rotation at the same time.

Like, I'm not saying that Viper isn't somewhat mechanically demanding, it does have the highest APM in the game, it's just not nearly demanding enough relative to most of the other DPS to justify it's extremely simple rotation.

I haven't played DRG to 100 yet, but are you sure those are forced double weaves in the same way Viper's is?

If you don't double weave as Viper, you straight up lose the ability. If you don't do it as DRG, you drift the OGCD's cooldown slightly but that's it. You also bring raid buffs as DRG where Viper does not.

Additionally, I was challenging the notion that there is no way to tell the difference between a good VPR and a bad VPR just because Noxious Gnash was lost. That is just incorrect.

[Tehmon]

Eh, works for me either way. Keeping up DoTs, buffs and debuffs is one of the lamest parts of any kit for me (I say this as a casual obviously), but at least Viper's was weaved nicely into his regular 1-2-3 combos unlike Reaper's nasty, clunky Shadow of Death. I understand that there's ton of '' skill expression '' involved with managing debuffs and DoTs even in a simple kit, but I don't need it for Viper (or any class for that matter).

I am though a bit weirded out by the lack of poison-theming now for a job that calls itself the Viper and even makes a reference to snake fangs in it's job icon. All snakes aren't venomous, but vipers are. So what gives? Where is the damn poison?

[Lorika]

Call me elitist, but we're supposed to listen to what you have to say?

You, who has 0 clears on Viper on EX (actually no EX clears at all) are supposed to tell us --- players that at least cleared EX with Viper --- that the changes are good and if not, we have not "played the job seriously"?

Utterly laughable.

Oh yeah EX need you to be very skilled *look at Bismarck*.... Yeah very very skilled *cough*
Yeah, what i just did is unfair but, seriously, not all the EX are hard, and, most of them don't ask perfect individual play, but a good party with people knowing what they are doing.

So, what is utterly laughable, is your answer and the way you assess someone skill.
There is a lot of very good player that don't or rarelly do EX because they don't want or, are not interested.
So your comment is completly out of the line and has nothing to do here

If you want to play at "who have the biggest", the official forum for a certain number one MMO is made for you.

[EdwinLi]

Eh, works for me either way. Keeping up DoTs, buffs and debuffs is one of the lamest parts of any kit for me (I say this as a casual obviously), but at least Viper's was weaved nicely into his regular 1-2-3 combos unlike Reaper's nasty, clunky Shadow of Death. I understand that there's ton of '' skill expression '' involved with managing debuffs and DoTs even in a simple kit, but I don't need it for Viper (or any class for that matter).

I am though a bit weirded out by the lack of poison-theming now for a job that calls itself the Viper and even makes a reference to snake fangs in it's job icon. All snakes aren't venomous, but vipers are. So what gives? Where is the damn poison?

The Job is mostly just Zidane gameplay style but they name it Viper seem to be something they chosen to reflect the whole twin sword being snake fangs.

I do not think they really mean it to be a "Viper" but just to give it a name that can provide some lore behind the Job for FF14 world that fights like Zidane since there is no real name for certain FF Character Specific jobs in their other FF games or they were just very modified versions of a existing FF game job.

I will not be surprised at this point if they introduce another Character based FF job like Zack job and call it SOLDIER Job

[LunaCelestiaXIV]

Oh yeah EX need you to be very skilled *look at Bismarck*.... Yeah very very skilled *cough*
Yeah, what i just did is unfair but, seriously, not all the EX are hard, and, most of them don't ask perfect individual play, but a good party with people knowing what they are doing.

So, what is utterly laughable, is your answer and the way you assess someone skill.
There is a lot of very good player that don't or rarelly do EX because they don't want or, are not interested.
So your comment is completly out of the line and has nothing to do here

If you want to play at "who have the biggest", the official forum for a certain number one MMO is made for you.

You clearly have 0 context comprehension skills if this is your response to my post.

Again, another utterly laughable response.

[Tehmon]

The Job is mostly just Zidane gameplay style but they name Viper seem to be something they chosen to reflect the whole twin sword being snake fangs.

I do not think they really mean it to be a "Viper" but just to give it a name that can provide some lore behind the Job for FF14 world since there is no real name for certain FF Character Specific jobs in their other FF games.

Honestly, the twin swords just doesn't elicit any kind of snake fang metaphor for me in this case lol. Could've called it Blademaster or Hunter or Serpent if they are hellbent on snake references, but vipers are specifically the venomous group of the snake family.

[Zakon]

I really don't think it is the most mechanically demanding job in the game. The OGCDs and the way the button swaps are designed is so elegant that even though on paper it has more button presses per min (not even by a lot by the way) it feels a lot less busy.

Also all those things you listed, how are those even Viper specific at all?
Good Vipers will get better DPS because they wont die to boss mechanics and have better uptime...
Yeah? This applies to every class in the game? Should every class only press 1 button and remove all rotational and job specific skill expression because there are already raid mechanics to express your skills in?

Viper is unique in that if you don't double weave you lose the ability.

I never said it doesn't apply to every class in the game, I was pointing out it's nonsense to say that there will be 0 difference between a good Viper and bad Viper now.

APM = mechanically demanding. If your job has a complex rotation but not a high APM requirement, it doesn't have mechanical difficulty, it has difficulty in the complexity of its rotation or in the decisions it has to make. Viper is the highest APM job in the game and it's also melee, which means it needs to maintain melee uptime on top of having the fastest buttons to press, which by necessity makes it the most mechanically demanding.

[EdwinLi]

Honestly, the twin swords just doesn't elicit any kind of snake fang metaphor for me in this case lol. Could've called it Blademaster or Hunter or Serpent if they are hellbent on snake references, but vipers are specifically the venomous group of the snake family.

I think they may have something originally planned for Viper to relation to Serpent due to how it was mentioned in the Viper story quest about the Job's origin being related to Snakes and there is maybe something about the Twin Adder's origin for the organizations name related to it but they never followed up on it in the Viper Job story quest due to the 10 level limit they have now with newer jobs for their Job story.

Either way naming a Character specific Job from a FF game that did not have a name for the specific character's unique job seem to be more related to giving a job lore reason to exists rather than a reflection of their gameplay or simply to just reflect their gameplay without needing much lore reason for their name.

They done this with Gunbreaker as well since this is a combination of Squall, Seifer, and Lightning gameplay style and they explain the name for this job was created because the "job" for Gunbreakers was to rush into combat with defensive skills that makes them temporary immune to Gun fire so they can get close and break the enemy's guns. Thus the name Gun-Breaker.

I think only Reaper is named after its gameplay rather than lore since it is just FF11 Scythe Dark Knight but they cannot use the Dark Knight name so they named it Reaper to reflect the whole Grim Reaper theme with certain mechanics and scythe attacks.

[Nathavin]

I'm going to repeat what I'm saying in other threads on this issue:
Viper is literally much worse now and here's why.

The short but easily reapply-able 20s debuff (With a 40s max) gave vipers something to optimize, as the other two buffs require almost no thought other than when coming out of your 2/6/8/10 min window.
Before going into your reawakening its its fun to plan how you're going to ensure you go in with atleast 22+seconds of this debuff. Also if you set it up correctly its very easy to just apply a single gcd of gnash inbetween the two reawakens should you have miscalculated the timer! Beyond this I have to wonder if anyone who is saying these changes are good ever played reaper, as reaper's triple enshroud was almost always not worth the effort and very clunky.

Dealing with EX1 Vali and optimizing when the boss disengages you for the application of gnash on the needles (first hit of 3 hit combo on needle one, then use dreadwinder on needle two) then spacing out snaps to allow the timing of the first returning gcd on vali to be gnash was a ton of fun to optimize, and even when it was difficult to do, it was not a big deal as you still had 16-8 seconds till reawaken! Enough time to apply the debuff twice!

Viper was always an easy job. Noxious gash was just the one thing other than uptime and positional you could optimize.
Gnash feels truly like a better version of reapers death's design. It almost makes me wish they would make it a alternate combo for RPR rather than being a single button.

For all intents and purposes, Viper plays very similarly. But the few plates that you had to spin have fallen and all you have now is uptime, and positionals.
If you're saying its better I doubt you've ever tried to optimize it in any content whatsoever, let alone EX+ content.

TL;DR it's the worse and honestly more boring, you did not seriously play viper if you think the noxious gash change is good.

[KazumaFaemura]

The Job is mostly just Zidane gameplay style but they name it Viper seem to be something they chosen to reflect the whole twin sword being snake fangs.

I do not think they really mean it to be a "Viper" but just to give it a name that can provide some lore behind the Job for FF14 world that fights like Zidane since there is no real name for certain FF Character Specific jobs in their other FF games or they were just very modified versions of a existing FF game job.

I will not be surprised at this point if they introduce another Character based FF job like Zack job and call it SOLDIER Job

Viper doesn't play anything like Zidane, that would have been Rogue before it changed to Ninja (Honestly I wish Rogue and Ninja were split apart really liked that class ;~; )