Viper Changes are good, actually

[EdwinLi]

Don't worry. In a little over a month it will have been 'this' way longer than it was the 'old' way and then the people who like it as it is now will have had more time with their version and you will be the ones asking for changes to a job other people enjoy and the cycle will continue.

I am surprised most people are not prepared for changes towards a Job they will obviously not like at this point. It is probably why I am more cautious with new expansion changes all the time.

Each expansion has a tendency to completely change a job towards a way certain players will not like. Certain ones greater than others due to how a Job may end up completely changing their gameplay style.

Machinist Job seem to be the only Job they have not changed much since they established the gameplay style in 5.0 after going through the constant changes it had through 3.0 to 4.X era. They've only been adding on to that foundation each expansion for MCH since then.

[Lamarcy2699]

I am surprised most people are not prepared for changes towards a Job they will obviously not like at this point. It is probably why I am more cautious with new expansion changes all the time.

Each expansion has a tendency to completely change a job towards a way certain players will not like. Certain ones greater than others due to how a Job may end up completely changing their gameplay style.

They have only ever changed potencies for the brand new job they released, they have never altered the kit of a brand new job so heavily before, at least to my knowledge. That's why people feel blindsided, that and the lack of communication. They may add QoL but they never have changed core mechanics this heavily for a job that's been out less than a month. They also rarely if ever change the way a job works completely right before savage. They mentioned changing positionals but got a lot of negativity from it and instead of learning to leave it alone like so many asked for instead we get changes almost no one asked for, all these new threads are evidence enough of that.

The main crux of why the changes to VPR are an issue falls into two main categories:

1) There is a distinct lack of communication between the playerbase and the development team behind job changes. Players voices are very rarely heard and it creates a sense of frustration. People take it to the right places (these forums, the leave a suggestion feature) but rarely if ever is action taken, even when the consensus feels pretty overwhelming like VPR right now. They also don't give job change details beforehand and just push it to live test every other patch and pray it goes over well. Changes being made to jobs are far too sparsed out, so if they mess up their maths (which is very common for them, see PLD 6.3 on how it was weaker than before it was changed) and it needs further adjustments youre just out of luck for a few weeks to months.

2) The oversimplification of jobs was already going too far and this made it worse. It really cannot continue. It started with healers becoming homogenized, then the tanks started becoming more simplified, and now we're seeing DPS become simplified to the extremes. MNK just spells your roation out for you now, as does VPR after the changes. Phys range is a joke of a role (MCH the selfish DPS that can't be too selfish, the DNC changes being awful, the lack of variety in jobs to pick from compared to other roles) and magical DPS are all over the place in terms of balancing. Not to mention what they did to SMN. They stripped a lot of optimizations from jobs people enjoyed (BLM and SAM being notable ones), and they continue to erode away job identity with each update they make to the game. Even Yoshi P himself has gone on record to say the game is becoming too easy and regrets it, but that's about all the communication we got so far about what they're planning to do to alleviate it.

[W00by]

1) There is a distinct lack of communication between the playerbase and the development team behind job changes. Players voices are very rarely heard and it creates a sense of frustration. People take it to the right places (these forums, the leave a suggestion feature) but rarely if ever is action taken, even when the consensus feels pretty overhelming like VPR right now. They also don't give job change details beforehand and just push it to live test every other patch and pray it goes over well. Changes being made to jobs are far too sparsed out, so if they mess up their maths (which is very common for them, see PLD 6.3 on how it was weaker than before it was changed) and it needs further adjustments youre just out of luck for a few weeks to months.

THANK YOU for taking the time to emphasize this part. Even if these changes were less controversial -- hell, they could be the bomb dot com -- it's STILL stupid to have pushed them with no prior communication with the playerbase, on SAVAGE LAUNCH DAY no less. Even though they seem well received, I think the BLM and SAM reworks ALSO should have come either later or earlier, this was such a dumb time to change anything. Whether you love or hate the changes, they were objectively handled awfully.

(and for what it's worth i hate the changes)

[Reinha]

THANK YOU for taking the time to emphasize this part. Even if these changes were less controversial -- hell, they could be the bomb dot com -- it's STILL stupid to have pushed them with no prior communication with the playerbase, on SAVAGE LAUNCH DAY no less. Even though they seem well received, I think the BLM and SAM reworks ALSO should have come either later or earlier, this was such a dumb time to change anything. Whether you love or hate the changes, they were objectively handled awfully.

(and for what it's worth i hate the changes)

You're right, the timing is horrendous too. I had practiced Viper for a month to the point I felt comfortable taking it to savage, gotten consumables and used the two weeks of normal raid gear drops on this job, just to find out about the change on the release day of savage. Now I don't want to play it anymore. Why couldn't they let us enjoy Viper even for one major patch and one tier of savage before making it boring?

My former main job RPR is currently level 92 and PCT has been level 100 for only a few days and I have not practiced it enough to do hard content with it. I guess I'll just focus on leveling alts because I'm very unmotivated to do anything else now that my main job is no longer fun to play.

[Trich]

Vpr was already a very simple job. The skill expression of not overlapping their debuff turned out to be quite fun to me. Made it simple but satisfying. Now without it the combo just alternates and the winders take no thought just press it. They've taken an already easy job and removed the only skill expression from the rotation. I've been pretty locked in playing vpr this expansion but after playing the rework it just feels so boring. I'm probably not going to continue playing it in this state. I'm very disappointed

[M1SF0RTUNE]

I'll echo a sentiment that I relayed elsewhere. I hate the changes and it took me doing Expert roulette for a second time (specifically Strayborough Deadwalk) just now to understand why.

Noxious Gnash was not only an ability that required skill and a good sense of timing to naturally upkeep with good muscle memory and practice, but more importantly it served as an additional visual queue that you also had control over.

Previously, when entering the 1-2-3 combo, you have to start with 1 or 2; 1 if you had Noxious Gnash up and 2 if you didn't. However, two important factors were 1. You had full control when to re-apply that buff and how (thanks to Dreadwinder or choosing to double-up on the debuff timer instead of continuously alternating), and 2. You only had to worry about 2 glowing buttons to follow for optimal damage maintenance after every starter. It meant that I spent a lot less time looking at the hotbar and letting the debuff timer help me plan ahead. I can deliberately set myself up to start with 1 several times in a row and that's a choice I got to make and set up for myself based on my needs and the fight I'm getting into.

With the current changes you're now forced to follow a strictly linear combo and it feels clunky and is ultimately making me watch the hotbar even more since the buttons change (unlike other classes where you just hit 1-2-3 to achieve a similar result) and it becomes easier to lose track of where you are in the combo if you stop paying attention to, say, avoid a boss mechanic and/or go into Reawaken which covers up where you were in the combo or DreadwinderVicewinder that can force your attention/focus elsewhere on the hotbar to hit GCD's/oGCD's. This was especially noticeable on Deadwalk's second boss, where I'd be paying too much attention to not getting hit and then losing which part of 1-1-2-2-1-2-1-1-2-2-2-2 I was on without looking down and watching, especially if I was trying to squeeze a Reawaken in which obscures where I was in the combo.

Noxious Gnash was the thread that tied things like DreadwinderVicewinder and Reawaken in and out of the combo. For instance, setting yourself up with 40 seconds with well-planned Dreadwinder management or utilizing Dread Fang gave your Reawaken far more punch, and plus you could weave a Dread Fang in between if you absolutely needed more time. Dreadwinder was also incentivized too since it was able to apply so many buffs and debuffs all in one chain ability, which helped a lot of the flow of the job.

By cutting that thread and simultaneously forcing us to follow a strictly linear longer combo we can't get any breaks out of but can also lose track of thanks to transforming buttons and a confusing gauge, the job now simultaneously has less room for error by forcing me to follow directions more strictly, and is made more boring by removing choice and expression from the job. Brainless and spammy button mashing is not what drew me to the job in the first place.