Viper Changes are good, actually

[W00by]

You're not offending me by making something that was super easy to optimize sound difficult. Hitting "2" on your keyboard once every 40 seconds isn't hard. Nor is hitting it again when you switch off from adds/immunity phases hard. Like, I don't know who you are trying to fool. Viper was the easiest melee to master before the patch, which is actually why I was confused as to why they were even adjusting it in the first place. If anything the hardest part of it was when you first unlocked it and you had everything thrown at you all at once, but after I got over that hump it was literally the easiest melee job I've played in DT and I've got mnk, vpr, nin, and rpr at 100. I mean if you want that challenge then play reaper, it has the same mechanic but "harder" since it's a separate skill and doesn't auto refresh in your normal damage rotation.

So, two things: One, it was not a button you pressed once every 40s in high end content. When the boss was phasing or there were multiple targets, Noxious Gash was something you had to think about. You couldn't just Dreadwinder willy nilly or you'd overcap, but now it's just something you kinda do whenever you want, which removes thought and engagement from the class. Also, add phases and two target Ultimate phases and stuff like that were much, much more fun before this change, which I know because I took VPR synced into old raids. It would've been much more interesting in savage if Noxious Gash was maintained. I'm not saying these mitigations were some Endwalker Black Mage era black magic optimizations that were soooo insanely hard, but the skill ceiling is indisputably lower.

Two, if it was so easy, why do you care if it was removed? The skill floor is unaffected while the skill ceiling is indisputably lowered. So who does this benefit? It ONLY hurts players at the ceiling while also doing nothing for the skill floor.

Please try and think critically. You may have Viper unlocked, but that does not mean you were an expert on it then or an expert on it now.

[Leonus]

It's funny because you are doing exactly that, but it's even worse, what does your post even provide to the conversation at all?
Complaining about people giving constructive criticism about a job change lol? How does it affect you at all, genuinely?
You think Square Enix wants their playerbase to not say anything about a change they don't like or what?

It’s not constructive criticism. It’s just complaining. It’s a “me, me, me” mindset. If you don’t like it, take the advice most people were giving others before the changes. Don’t play it. People are really good about “giving it” but are absolutely horrendous at “taking it”.

[TeutonicWings]

they literally removed the most engaging part of it and made it a crayon eating job like and removed the only thing you have to even think about from the job entirely wow such great design guys, I hate ppl like you demanding the job becomes braindead easy and sqx for caving to this whining after 6 days, like what is that, they only listen to people complaining they never listen to the other side it's so cringe. the job is just worse to play now

[Eudyptes]

So, two things: One, it was not a button you pressed once every 40s in high end content. When the boss was phasing or there were multiple targets, Noxious Gash was something you had to think about. You couldn't just Dreadwinder willy nilly or you'd overcap, but now it's just something you kinda do whenever you want, which removes thought and engagement from the class. Also, add phases and two target Ultimate phases and stuff like that were much, much more fun before this change, which I know because I took VPR synced into old raids. It would've been much more interesting in savage if Noxious Gash was maintained. I'm not saying these mitigations were some Endwalker Black Mage era black magic optimizations that were soooo insanely hard, but the skill ceiling is indisputably lower.

Two, if it was so easy, why do you care if it was removed? The skill floor is unaffected while the skill ceiling is indisputably lowered. So who does this benefit? It ONLY hurts players at the ceiling while also doing nothing for the skill floor.

Please try and think critically. You may have Viper unlocked, but that does not mean you were an expert on it then or an expert on it now.

First and foremost I already stated I was indifferent to the change. That means I don't care that it was removed, and I wouldn't care if it stayed. Why? Because it was not a challenge to keep up. Dreadwinder has a 40 second CD. You want to be doing that as often as possible at sub 20 seconds of the debuff. If it's down, then you use reaving fangs in it's place. That is what I meant by a "20 second window every 40 seconds", because as long as you hit one of those at any point between 20 and 1 of that debuff timer your dps remains unaffected. When adds pop or the boss phases it actually makes very little difference to that, as you just switch who you're doing that to. It was not difficult to do at all cause effectively when you switch targets you just push "2" instead of "1" to reapply it. Stop trying to make it sound like it was some 5head skill ceiling when it absolutely was not.

I played it in raids and EX's, so I don't really know how much higher level content I could have played it in before today. I main mnk so that's where all my gear is going and what I use in progression, but that doesn't mean I don't switch to other classes when I want a change of pace. Hell I even have the stupid skyruin weapons for my vpr which is more than I can say for my nin or rpr atm.

Honestly it was such an insignificant aspect of the class that I'm surprised they even removed it, and that people are freaking out over it this much.

[Cynric]

The filler part of the rotation feels boring now compared to last patch, there's too many highlights for skills now, and vicewinder feels like an empty button. The upkeep with the debuff wasn't the most amazing thing in the world, but it was still more fun to do than nothing at all before I get to Reawaken. Part of what made viper really cool to me was that the filler rotation was interesting as well as the burst. Now the filler rotation is boring which is a shame.

I'll still play it but I definitely wouldn't call these changes good. The range increases were good changes from the first balance pass.

[Baxcel]

Welcome to the change 1 thing about the job and now it sucks club vipers..
Members include GNB, DRK, SAM, Healers and SMN

[AngaratoSvartberg]

so much drama. literally every other class has a dot, buff, other bullshit they have to keep track off. go play 1 of those then. im glad to be rid of it. this 1 was braindead easy already. and ya'll saying noxious was so skillbased also in the same breathe say they want to remove positionals. which would make it way more boring and braindead than keeping up an automatic debuff cause its somehow hard for you all to do:
if (debuff = <20){
noxious bullshit
}
else {
da other 1
}
DURRR SKILLLLLL

now remove positional so i can do this insanely difficult calculation in my head while standing perfectly still all fight.

[TeutonicWings]

so much drama. literally every other class has a dot, buff, other bullshit they have to keep track off. go play 1 of those then. im glad to be rid of it. this 1 was braindead easy already. and ya'll saying noxious was so skillbased also in the same breathe say they want to remove positionals. which would make it way more boring and braindead than keeping up an automatic debuff cause its somehow hard for you all to do:
if (buff = <20){
noxious bullshit
}

DURRR SKILLLLLL
now remove positional so i can do this insanely difficult calculation in my head while standing perfectly still all fight.

insane reading comprehension, they were saying this in response to people complaining about difficulty and if they absolutely had to change smth that it should be positionals, also no not every job has some debuff they have to think about, most of that has been gutted from the game and is either completely removed or the timers are so long you don't have to even think about it

[Reinha]

Is the boss going away and will it be a damage loss to refresh NG?
Should I delay using a Dreadwinder to avoid overcapping NG?
Should I use Dread Fangs before Dreadwinder becomes available?
Will my NG last long enough for Reawaken? What about a second Reawaken?
Do I have time to dump coil stacks before NG falls off?
Am I letting the NG timer fall too low to allow for sudden disengages?

vs

Is the button glowing?

Now you don't need to think about when the boss goes away or when you have to move away from the boss, when you use Dreadwinder, when you Reawaken or when you use coils. Just press the glowing button. The game shows you the answer with a dotted line instead of you finding the answers yourself by experimenting and learning. All of the things you had to consider and plan for were removed and the job is now objectively simpler and more one-dimensional. And for what? Viper was the most played job in the game, it didn't need to be simplified.

[Leonus]

Is the boss going away and will it be a damage loss to refresh NG?
Should I delay using a Dreadwinder to avoid overcapping NG?
Should I use Dread Fangs before Dreadwinder becomes available?
Will my NG last long enough for Reawaken? What about a second Reawaken?
Do I have time to dump coil stacks before NG falls off?
Am I letting the NG timer fall too low to allow for sudden disengages?

vs

Is the button glowing?

Now you don't need to think about when the boss goes away or when you have to move away from the boss, when you use Dreadwinder, when you Reawaken or when you use coils. Just press the glowing button. The game shows you the answer with a dotted line instead of you finding the answers yourself by experimenting and learning. All of the things you had to consider and plan for were removed and the job is now objectively simpler and more one-dimensional. And for what? Viper was the most played job in the game, it didn't need to be simplified.

You would still have to think of when the boss goes away so you know when to dump coils… some people like that decision mini-game. Some don’t. I don’t care either way because it’s the aesthetic of the class that matters more to me.

Actually, I might be weird. I find it harder to play because there is more freedom. Before my decisions were made by what was available vs my NG timer. Now I’ve got so much freedom I’m like… “well… shit”.